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Why 'Fool' Cells.... WHY?
- Thread starter nwdiver
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Again going back to Fuel Cells for a second, they CAN be BRILLIANT but not 1) anything other than hydrogen in something the size and mobility of a vehicle from a large transit bus or smaller, or 2) hydrogen as a fuel for any use other than intrastellar/interstellar usage. IF it were technically possible to use one of the types of FC that run on methane, or purified natural gas, or propane, or gasoline, or alcohols in a moving vehicle, when I'd say go for GFC, or PFC, or NGFC, or MFC, or dieselFC, or EthanolFC or whatever. But they are too 1) heavy 2) hot 3) fragile 4) other various drawbacks to be used in other than a very stationary large building, powering even larger stationary buildings with both electricity and lots of process heat.
The ONLY fuel cell than could possible be used in a road vehicle (ie, with motion and bumps) is hydrogen. Even if those obstacles could be overcome, the heat output of non-hydrogen is more in the range of a Chrysler's Turbine Car. For a good sensible primer on fuel cells, the book written in 2005 by Joseph J Romm is top notch. Joseph J Romm used to head up the US Government end of Fuel Cell research. He is in favour of Fuel Cells...but NOT for vehicles, and definitely not hydrogen. Anyone you meet who still believes in HFCV, refer them to this easy to read/understand book, likely in your local library. The hype about hydrogen : fact and fiction in the race to save the climate ISBN 1559637048
Speaking of Joe Romm, only a few months left in this eight year old bet: Joseph Romm and Greg Blencoe Bet On Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles : TreeHugger
I just discovered a new law of the inter-webs; Somewhat similar to Godwins Law... except instead of Nazis it's climate change. If a thread discussing any sort of energy use or production continues long enough... eventually climate change will be mentioned... I'm calling this Hansons Law
Which anti-science prophets of doom are you referring to? 'Cause there's plenty of doom in science that you shouldn't need to venture outside the realm of reality. IMO the scariest is the clathrate gun hypothesis.
DuncanWatson
Member
2014 Auto Sales Jump in U.S., Even With Recalls
"According to the tracking company Autodata, 16.5 million new autos" were sold in the U.S. in 2014.
So 1% would be 160,500 vehicles. 2015 may be a bit more.
I think that this year less than 500 FCVs will be sold / leased in the U.S., or less than 0.00003% of all autos sold.
Romm won his bet big time.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
DaveD
EVs Kick Gas!
According to their LinkedIn profiles:
Joe Romm currently works at the Center for American Progress, where he's been since 2006.
Greg Blencoe left Hydrogen Discoveries, Inc. in December 2010. He then wrote a management book (The Supermanager: A Short Story About the Secrets of an Extremely Successful Manager). He's currently Self-employed.
Since this is a fuel/fool cell thread. I noticed that EPA rates gasoline as 33.7kWH/gallon equivalent. So 3 gallons of gasoline = 101.1 kWH.
My understanding is that we are only able to extract 10-20% of the energy via combustion (rest lost as heat). I know everyone talks about H2 fuel cell, but theoretically you can build gasoline fuel cells. I read that the theoretical efficiency would be 60-70%. At that rate, you can get 100kWH out of approximately 4-5 gallons. Furthermore the infrastructure is there and gasoline is relatively stable and easier to store than H2. If the oil and gas companies invest in anything fuel cell related they should be looking at this.
My personal bias is to build better batteries, but I doubt the oil and gas companies would have any interest in investing their money that way.
My understanding is that we are only able to extract 10-20% of the energy via combustion (rest lost as heat). I know everyone talks about H2 fuel cell, but theoretically you can build gasoline fuel cells. I read that the theoretical efficiency would be 60-70%. At that rate, you can get 100kWH out of approximately 4-5 gallons. Furthermore the infrastructure is there and gasoline is relatively stable and easier to store than H2. If the oil and gas companies invest in anything fuel cell related they should be looking at this.
My personal bias is to build better batteries, but I doubt the oil and gas companies would have any interest in investing their money that way.
Actually, modern engines do a lot better than that when operating in the better ranges. A lot of the improvement in gas mileage in hybrids comes from keeping the engine in those sweet spots. My Volt can achieve 33-34% thermal efficiency with its conventional port injected OHV engine (with variable valve timing and other modern bits, of course.) The last generation Prius can manage 37-38% with it's Atkinson cycle motor, and I'm told they claim 40% for 2016s.
So the gap (and therefore the opportunity) is a lot smaller than you're thinking, but your point is still valid.
I'm not an expert on fuel cells of all types, but the only ones I'm familiar with that can handle longer chain hydrocarbons are things like the solid oxide ceramic cells. These work at very high temperatures (900C) and "burn" the long chains by breaking them down thermally first (like a gassifier does) in the fuel cell chamber. I'm not sure if they get any power from oxidizing the carbon or not.
An interesting alternative (which doesn't really improve the situation much all things considered) would be an on board steam reformer. This would let you use a lower temperature (and I believe more efficient and shock tolerant) hydrogen fuel cell (which would then be getting the full benefit of the carbon oxidation, because the steam reformer generates hydrogen in the process) - but you would still have the high temperature gasses in the reformer itself.
Walter
Thanks for the insight! Came across this article from 2011 regarding miniaturizing and decreasing temps for fuel cells. I wonder whatever happened to this?
Gasoline Fuel Cell Would Boost Electric Car Range
Only thing I could find was an attempt to create a fuel cell for building power supplies, not cars or trucks.
As a car application, fuel cells need to use Hydrogen because with gasoline, you can't get rid of CO2... Doesn't make sense half-burning the gas then use Hydrogen to generate electricity.
For power generation application, here in Japan gas companies sell LNG or LPG fuel cells for homes. They take advantage of heat from burning carbon, then use Hydrogen to generate electricity to run air conditioning. The heat will be used to heat water for air conditioning and bath. On a car, most heat will be wasted in summer, hence much less efficiency.
California Ponders Changes to Fuel Rules as Tesla Cries Foul
So, since the value of ZEV credits will drop so much when Tesla, GM and Nissan have 200+ mile EVs that rollout of H2 cars will drop, thus further delaying the viability of H2 vehicles so far into the future that
Its just not acceptable
ironic, CARB's sentimentalty for H2 is so strong that it seeks to punish BEV pioneers.
So, since the value of ZEV credits will drop so much when Tesla, GM and Nissan have 200+ mile EVs that rollout of H2 cars will drop, thus further delaying the viability of H2 vehicles so far into the future that
Its just not acceptable
ironic, CARB's sentimentalty for H2 is so strong that it seeks to punish BEV pioneers.
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