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2015 Model S 90D battery degradation - ~ 20% (no new software related)

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Dunnman99, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Dunnman99

    Dunnman99 New Member

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    I seem to have a battery issue.

    I recently purchased my 2015 Model S 90d from the NJ Tesla CPO (april 2019) with ~34,000 miles on it. Upon pickup the car was charged to ~80% and showed 205 mile range.

    I have 48,500 miles on it now, when I charge to 90% (81Kw) and drive to and from work everyday, I am down to 5% battery (~15 miles) after driving 182 miles consuming only 53.1Kw per the vehicle logging.

    I only drive in”Range Mode”. No heat, A/C set at 23C with an outside avg temp of 26C. My commute speed averages 60mph, 43 miles each way everyday.

    I have lost 24Kw or 20% of battery capacity, based upon the "available miles" upon the first day of pickup, this was the state of the battery upon purchase with ~34,000 miles on the clock in April 2019. Please explain. I didn't think about the range because I was a first time Tesla owner and I figured it was due to a fresh software load and mileage would settle out later....it never has.

    I charged to 100% one time because of a long trip and the rated range was 250 miles.

    I see Given that 5% = 4.5Kw my battery only yields 57.6Kw of use on an 81kw charge, I seem to be missing some capacity. I normally charge to 80-90% and get an avg of 40-50 miles (210-230 miles) which is about 50-70 less than the calculated and estimated capacity of a 90Kw battery.

    My max rated range at a 90% charge is 230-233 miles in “Range Mode” with an average 295Wh/m usage, that results in 53-55Kw capacity. It should be closer to 270 miles based upon a 90Kw battery with a charged 90% (81Kw) capacity and usage.

    This does not seem right.

    Each morning I only lose 4-5 miles over night with no preconditioning. So I am losing only 1-2% over a resting period of 8 hours, I understand temperature fluctuations occur and it is cooler in the morning, so really no loss occurs.

    I just completed a 1200 mile road trip and never reached over 200 miles per 85-90% charge except when the Supercharger forced a 97% charge in order to "just" make it to the next charger with 5% remaining, I pulled into planned supercharging stations with less than 10% remaining on 3 occasions. I was almost unable to reach one supercharger when I pulled in with 5% remaining and systems were shutting down. Driving was utilising smart cruise control at the speed limit and +5mph averaged days had little wind and avg of 88 degrees outside.

    Seeing this it seems that I have “lost” 20Kw how do I get this fixed?

    I have attempted to schedule mobile and in store service but the App continues to tell me that my registered phone number is invalid and will not allow scheduling.
     
  2. commasign

    commasign TeslaAdviceBlog.com

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    You probably have the 90kWh Version 1 pack which is known to have excessive battery degradation and supercharger throttling. Unfortunately, Tesla will likely tell you that it's still "within spec". The battery warranty on S and X does not cover battery degradation.
     
  3. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    As mentioned many times in the forum, do not trust on board since last chrge kwh counter for these kind of calculations. It doesnt take into account static consumption. Only takes into account energy used while driving. So during traffic lights or when car is parked it doesnt calculate consumption. So if you drive it 5-10 miles every day and check since last charge you might think you’re rocking a 50kwh pack.

    Secondly, also as discussed many times, 90 isn’t really 90. At least not usable. Fresh out of the factory BMS reports 85,4kwh of which roughly 4kWh is locked out so only 81,4kwh usable. Yes it can hold 87-89kWh of “charge” but if you deplete all of that charge it probably won’t charge back up again. When you also take into consideration 5-6% loss within first 3-4 years is pretty reasonable, you most likely have 75-76kwh available energy. You can find this out on a long uninterrupted drive through trip counter. Or there’s a thread somewhere here by wk057 that lets you calculate available energy from rated miles.

    The on going rumor of 1st gen 90 packs losing more than average is also correct. So don’t be surprised to have 71-75kWh usable energy in.

    I also have a 90D. Even though it is a rev3 pack built in March of 2017 (facelift) first owner abused it by charging to 100% everyday in first 1,5 years 25k miles. I had it for around 20k miles since than and in those 45k miles total it lost 7%. So all I have is 75-76kWh. Pretty much the same as a Model 3 Long Range but with 20-25% more consumption due to the body.

    So yeah technically everything is fine with the car but on a realistic 70-80mph scenario our range is no more than 200-220mi. On really good days when you’re on a road in which traffic goes between 50-60mph you can get 260miles but long story short due to tech advancing really fast, high end Model S from just 3 years ago is now at the same range as 37k $ Model 3 of today.

    Another way to look at it is it still has more range than any other EV competitor be it EQC, eTron or I-Pace.
     
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  4. cduzz

    cduzz Member

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    This is an ordinary 90D, not performance? I've never been able to find hard EPA numbers for the pre-facelift 90D; I thought they were in the 288 miles range and you're at roughly 255 miles. This puts you at roughly 88.5% of your original battery capacity; not good but not so obviously wrong that it's a smoking gun.

    My car, for instance, is a V1 90D (not performance), and my 80% is 222 miles and my 90% is 250 miles and my 100% is 277 miles. The car itself has 47k miles; I got it used (from tesla) in June with 45k miles. Overnight I sometimes see 1 mile of drain, typically not even that. I tend to keep the car between 60% and 90% and fill to 100% when I plan on driving long distances. 1/3rd of my charging has been at superchargers the rest on home (16a240v) or work (30a208v) L2 chargers.

    My car, on the highway, easily achieves the listed range, range mode enabled or not enabled (I typically leave it off unless I'm trying to skip superchargers). My understanding is that range mode is counter-productive in some situations; it heats the battery up to a higher temperature where the chemistry is more efficient (as well as adjusts the biases to the smaller motor and reduces the maximum power draw of the climate control); the heater tax may outweigh the efficiency gains; I've read (again without ability to site sources) that range mode should only be enabled if you think you may need the added range to get to the next charging station. In your case I would consider a couple of A/B tests of leaving it on / leaving it off for a week.

    What is your power meter saying about your power consumption? I fluctuate between 300 and 350 in city driving (30 mile average with a 10 mile commute each way) and easily can hit 280ish on highways at 65-85mph on non-level driving.

    I assume you've got your tires at the correct PSI?

    The issue of not being able to achieve even close to the rated range even on the highway, or if it shutting down before 0% range, etc, are cause to take it to a service center IMO; the gauge is supposed to be accurate...

    Now, if it is just doing things like reducing AC and warning you of reduced power output, that's normal.

    Take a picture of the energy graph tabs near the end of a trip (both energy used and the expected range) -- those are extremely helpful in giving a good view of what is going on and what the car thinks should go on with a particular trip. To make it work effectively, use the navigation and give that trip's destination; that way the computer can plot out expected energy use and observed energy use.
     
  5. Dunnman99

    Dunnman99 New Member

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    I am a first time poster and first time owner so thank you for being patient.

    It is just surprising that even on a long trip, charger to charger with no stopping and only highway driving the trip meter states I have used ~55-59Kw and driven 188-195 miles and I am at between 5-10% remaining from a 90% charge.

    I understand if I sit in traffic or do stop and go, wait days between driving, but this is a daily driver 450 miles + per week for work and road trips. Effectively it looks to me like I had a 62-65Kw battery if I go by the meter, my range and remaining charge each day.

    Heck I have free supercharging for life, so it is not like it costs me anything to charge to 80-90% each day so I can drive to work. But if I go a day without charging it is a 5% pull up to the charger on the second day with 190 miles driven on the trip meter. In a normal car I never let the tank get to 1/2, but in this Tesla it is inevitable that it is only above 1/2 for a day at time.

    I'll continue to log my issue and take pics of the trip meter.

    Thank you for the advice.
     
  6. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Active Member

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    What do you mean by systems shutting down at 5%? Nothing out of the ordinary should be happening at 5% other than possibly limited power, shown as hash marks on the energy gauge.
     
  7. Dunnman99

    Dunnman99 New Member

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    Yes, I got a dash warning that climate control was turning off. When I recharged the touch screen characters were garbled and the display on the charge status were unreadable. I completed a deep reboot of both displays and the display returned to normal. I also had 2 “phantom car” hard emergency braking events that same leg of the trip.
     
  8. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Active Member

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    5% is definitely too soon for climate control to turn off. I have been down below 2% on several occasions with my 2015 70D and have never had anything start to shut down. This suggests to me that either you have a calibration issue, or there is indeed something wrong with you HV battery. I would at the very least contact Tesla service about this, if for no other reason that to get it documented.
     
  9. cduzz

    cduzz Member

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    Were I in your shoes, I would be concerned about the coming winter when your range will be greatly reduced.

    What is your home / work charging situation?

    What happens if you make your commute with the AC turned off entirely?
     
  10. Dunnman99

    Dunnman99 New Member

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    I guess I am going about this wrong. My battery is Not degraded and I have not experienced degradation.

    When I picked the car up in April charged at 80% it did not have the battery capacity as noted on the specs or the invoice. In the 4 months of ownership my battery has exhibited a capacity of less than 70Kw and normally in the high 60’s range. I believe the wrong battery is in my car otherwise how could it have been sold as a 90d with less than a 70Kw battery capacity?

    My invoice and sales documents note a 90Kw battery yet I have no empirical proof of anything greater than a 70Kw battery being in my car.

    This Saturday i will conduct yet another 100% to 2% drive (drain test) and document uninterrupted KWh useage, range and missing capacity.

    Hopefully having owned this less than 4 full months will negate my claim of degradation and put the responsibility of selling a CPO vehicle with a battery missing ~25% of the capacity as stated on the sales invoice.
     
  11. GlmnAlyAirCar

    GlmnAlyAirCar Active Member

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    294 miles is the rated range of the 90D when new; you are showing 250 miles rated range with 100% charge, so this is a loss of approximately 15%, not 25 as stated. Rated range is directly proportional to the amount of usable energy in the battery so this should be your benchmark for degredation.

    While 15% is certainly not good, it is within the low end of what is considered normal. My 2015 70D is down approximately 11% since new with 149,000 miles.

    I am quite certain you have the correct battery although this is easy to confirm by checking the battery label through the wheel well.

    There are plenty of threads here about recent reductions in rated range (Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software) on some variants.
     
  12. Tabascolorado

    Tabascolorado New Member

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    I must be one of the lucky ones because I have a pre-facelift 2016 90D (58k miles) with a V1 battery and I'm getting 211mi - 80% and 268mi - 100% which is only ~9% degradation.
     
  13. cduzz

    cduzz Member

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    I think there is some selection bias here -- people with good batteries and such have less reason to seek out a forum to complain to.

    I'm at 48k miles, my 100% is 277, 90% is 250, and 80% is 222; I go to 90% once a month. I've also got a pre-facelift 2016 90D.
     
  14. Pantoot

    Pantoot Member

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    Hmm, I guess I should read up on how Remote S estimates the charge level.
    Both cars are right around 45k miles.

    pre-facelift 90D - 89% charge, Est 232, rated 225, ideal 284. Est. Charge 65 of 73kWh.
    facelift P90D - 77% charge, est 190, rated 185, ideal 323. Est charge 57 of 75kWh.
     
  15. cduzz

    cduzz Member

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    Range estimates are based on how you've got the energy settings setup; it can look at past 5/15/30 miles (or comparable metric); there is a line for "rated range" where there is a constant consumption / mile that's used for the "miles remaining" rating.

    Basically the gauge can tell you either % or range; range is useful because it is an actual estimate of "energy in battery".

    In city driving I may be able to approach or beat the "rated" range if I granny drive and leave the AC entirely off. Usually I'm 20-30% worse than "rated".

    In highway driving at 75mph in decent weather my car is typically at or below "rated" range / consumption.
     
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  16. emir-t

    emir-t Member

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    Can confirm directly from BMS data (seen through Tesla's very own diagnostics mode)
    My facelift 90D 2,5 y/o @ 47k miles = 75,5kWh usable energy
    Prefacelift P90D 3,5 y/o @43k miles = 73kWh usable energy
     
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  17. Pantoot

    Pantoot Member

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    Was your prefacelift back when they were charging the $3000 to go from 85 to 90?
    I have a (tongue in cheek) conspiracy theory that some early people got badges and stuff updated but in reality it was an 85kWh battery with a different part number.
     
  18. cduzz

    cduzz Member

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    The 85 and 90 are the same architecture (number / organization of cells); the distinction is that the 90 cells are "higher capacity". So in fact it would be exactly what you say, except that the cells inside the pack are also different. I *think* the distinction is that the 85 cells have more cobalt and the 90 cells have silicon to allow storing more electrons at full charge. There are several different versions of the 90 packs and the first couple are reputed to degrade much faster than any other pack.
     
  19. meomyo

    meomyo Member

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    Again i think if tesla is indeed monkeying with capping mileage from those who PAID EXTRA to update the miles then the car owner should just be refunded and leave it at that. To give you something you had to pay for and then take some of it away via software is shady and suspect.
     

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