2170 vs 4680

[Bill Price]

Watch Tesla's Cylindrical 4680 Battery Pack Compared with 2170 Pack

Twitter Photo Spotlight: Twitter account Whole Mars Catalog recently posted an image of what appears to be Tesla’s latest battery upgrade for potentially current and future Tesla EVs.

www.torquenews.com

 

[qdeathstar]

Well, the 2170 is smaller than the 4680, for one.

 

[Bill Price]

What's your point? That's like saying a AAA battery is smaller than a D battery.
While going up in size rather than down in size with each cell seems counter to design desires in a battery cell, the improvements made in the power capacity and control of heat generation of the 4680 over both the 18650 and the 2170 resulted in basically fewer cells with more power per pack in the same size pack as used with earlier Tesla models powered with the 18650 and 2170 cells.

To put this in a numerical perspective, that means only about 960 “4680” cells are needed to fill the same space as the 4,416 “2170” cells in the same amount of space, but with added benefits such as a lower cost per kWh production and a significant increase in power using the 4680 cell pack.

As reported earlier about a comparison to the 2170 cell, the 4680 is expected to provide five times more energy storage with 6 times more power resulting in an increase from 82 kWh to 95 kWh in the newer Tesla’s, translating into an expected increase in road range of up to 16 percent.

 

[qdeathstar]

I

What's your point? That's like saying a AAA battery is smaller than a D battery.
While going up in size rather than down in size with each cell seems counter to design desires in a battery cell, the improvements made in the power capacity and control of heat generation of the 4680 over both the 18650 and the 2170 resulted in basically fewer cells with more power per pack in the same size pack as used with earlier Tesla models powered with the 18650 and 2170 cells.

To put this in a numerical perspective, that means only about 960 “4680” cells are needed to fill the same space as the 4,416 “2170” cells in the same amount of space, but with added benefits such as a lower cost per kWh production and a significant increase in power using the 4680 cell pack.

As reported earlier about a comparison to the 2170 cell, the 4680 is expected to provide five times more energy storage with 6 times more power resulting in an increase from 82 kWh to 95 kWh in the newer Tesla’s, translating into an expected increase in road range of up to 16 percent.

I thought op was asking for differences. The post was unclear. You should’ve englished a little

An AAA battery is smaller than a D battery but somewhat provocatively not smaller than your standard coin cell battery, see.

 

[Brando]

suggest re-watch of Battery Day

 

[mszekely]

When are the new Y's with 4680s supposed to start getting delivered (China only for now, right?)? Very curious to see if range is increased or if they just put fewer cells to maintain range while cutting manufacturing costs

 

[BowserP3D]

What's your point? That's like saying a AAA battery is smaller than a D battery.
While going up in size rather than down in size with each cell seems counter to design desires in a battery cell, the improvements made in the power capacity and control of heat generation of the 4680 over both the 18650 and the 2170 resulted in basically fewer cells with more power per pack in the same size pack as used with earlier Tesla models powered with the 18650 and 2170 cells.

To put this in a numerical perspective, that means only about 960 “4680” cells are needed to fill the same space as the 4,416 “2170” cells in the same amount of space, but with added benefits such as a lower cost per kWh production and a significant increase in power using the 4680 cell pack.

As reported earlier about a comparison to the 2170 cell, the 4680 is expected to provide five times more energy storage with 6 times more power resulting in an increase from 82 kWh to 95 kWh in the newer Tesla’s, translating into an expected increase in road range of up to 16 percent.

4680’s are 9Ah
4.25v right?
38.25wh each
960 cells is 36.7kwh

2170 are 4.8ah
4.25v
20.4wh each
4,416 cells is 90kwh

and they consume the same space….????

Help me out am I missing the obvious here?

the difference between AAA to D I get that the larger cell can tolerate higher C rating, but I’m not getting the energy part….

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

4680’s are 9Ah
4.25v right?
38.25wh each
960 cells is 36.7kwh

2170 are 4.8ah
4.25v
20.4wh each
4,416 cells is 90kwh

and they consume the same space….????

Help me out am I missing the obvious here?

the difference between AAA to D I get that the larger cell can tolerate higher C rating, but I’m not getting the energy part….

Where did 9Ah come from? Just calculate the volume. That’s obviously not quite right, since there is overhead for a given volume, and energy density could change, but these are fairly small errors.

We know the latest 2170 can create a 81kWh pack in a 96s46p configuration so it’s about 18.5Wh.

A 4680 has (23^2/10.5^2 * 800/700) higher volume so 5.5x as much (this is where the 5x comes from I assume).

So it should be 100Wh or so. Regarding the power output it sounds like the tab-less means they can pull a little more current so get 6x rather than the expected 5x (if series resistance scaled down by 5x which is non-trivial). And “tab-less” (which seems to mean LOTS of tabs, ironically) has other cooling and the required series resistance improvements, apparently (current doesn’t have to flow all the way to a single tab) - listen to Battery Day presentation for those details.

It doesn’t sound like there is any huge increase in density of the energy within each cell, so far. However, larger volume to surface area ratio (which you get with larger cells) should help with packaging overhead of the individual cell, slightly.

 

[Bill Price]

4680’s are 9Ah
4.25v right?
38.25wh each
960 cells is 36.7kwh

2170 are 4.8ah
4.25v
20.4wh each
4,416 cells is 90kwh

and they consume the same space….????

Help me out am I missing the obvious here?

the difference between AAA to D I get that the larger cell can tolerate higher C rating, but I’m not getting the energy part….

Tesla is using the 2170 battery in the model 3's and Y's, which of course is slightly larger at 21 mm wide and 70 mm tall. At a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts, each 18650 cell can be charged as high as 4.2 volts and discharged as low as 2.5 volts, with each cell storing up to 3500 mAh. The 2170 cells also have a nominal voltage of 3.7 volts and can be charged as high as 4.2 volts and discharged as low as 2.5 volts just like the 18650 cells, but each cell can store up to 4800 mAh, or 1300 mAh more than each 18650 cell. Enter the new and improved 4680 cell, which of course is 46 mm wide and 80 mm tall. The weight is not available but its other voltage characteristics are reportedly similar or the same; however, each cell is rated for around a whopping 9000 mAh, which is why the new 4680 cell is so good. While going up in size rather than down in size with each cell seems counter to design desires in a battery cell, the improvements made in the power capacity and control of heat generation of the 4680 over both the 18650 and the 2170 resulted in basically fewer cells with more power per pack in the same size pack as used with earlier Tesla models powered with the 18650 and 2170 cells. To put this in a numerical perspective, that means only about 960 “4680” cells are needed to fill the same space as the 4,416 “2170” cells in the same amount of space, but with added benefits such as a lower cost per kWh production and a significant increase in power using the 4680 cell pack. As reported earlier about a comparison to the 2170 cell, the 4680 is expected to provide five times more energy storage with 6 times more power resulting in an increase from 82 kWh to 95 kWh in the newer Tesla’s, translating into an expected increase in road range of up to 16 percent.