500 + Mile Range Debate

[nwdiver]

I don't get how some people can't seem to understand that others may have different experiences or preferences.

So if 0.0001% of people want a particular option Tesla should make it available? More people probably used lumbar support in the passenger seat... that's gone. You don't make volume production more economic by catering to super rare edge cases.

People have all sorts of crazy preferences that when you break it down really don't make any sense. I had a friend that refused to travel >100 miles w/o an air compressor and his pneumatic tools... 'just in case'. Should an air compressor also be an option for a Model S? One of the traits of a truly innovative company is moulding what consumers want around what they ACTUALLY need instead of just enabling what they 'think' they need. Look at Apple. I 'need' a disc drive on my laptop... no... you don't. I 'need' a headphone jack in my phone.... no.... you don't. I 'need' 500 miles of range.... no... you don't.

 

[bigsmooth125]

So if 0.0001% of people want a particular option Tesla should make it available? More people probably used lumbar support in the passenger seat... that's gone. You don't make volume production more economic by catering to super rare edge cases.

People have all sorts of crazy preferences that when you break it down really don't make any sense. I had a friend that refused to travel >100 miles w/o an air compressor and his pneumatic tools... 'just in case'. Should an air compressor also be an option for a Model S? One of the traits of a truly innovative company is moulding what consumers want around what they ACTUALLY need instead of just enabling what they 'think' they need. Look at Apple. I 'need' a disc drive on my laptop... no... you don't. I 'need' a headphone jack in my phone.... no.... you don't. I 'need' 500 miles of range.... no... you don't.

You're using flawed argumentative techniques. First, you're using a strawman argument--you're answering a different question than the one people are discussing here. The question is what battery range do you want and why, and as an extension what battery range should Tesla aim to provide. I'm simply saying that people who disagree with others' preferences simply because it doesn't coincide with their own preferences are missing the point. You're also cherry picking. You chose Apple as an example in attempt to draw a favorable comparison with Tesla but one could also cite other companies that have made poor decisions that ignored their customers' preferences. The question then goes back to analyzing whether there is sufficient demand for a certain battery range, which is what people are discussing.

 

[nwdiver]

You're using flawed argumentative techniques. First, you're using a strawman argument--you're answering a different question than the one people are discussing here. The question is what battery range do you want and why, and as an extension what battery range should Tesla aim to provide. I'm simply saying that people who disagree with others' preferences simply because it doesn't coincide with their own preferences are missing the point. You're also cherry picking. You chose Apple as an example in attempt to draw a favorable comparison with Tesla but one could also cite other companies that have made poor decisions that ignored their customers' preferences. The question then goes back to analyzing whether there is sufficient demand for a certain battery range, which is what people are discussing.

??? Straw man? For pointing out that some people want to carry an air compressor and pneumatic tools? Why can't you understand that others may have different experiences or preferences? How is that any less legitimate that needing 500 miles of range instead of 400? Point is that there are always going to be rare edge cases... there's no logic in catering to them.

 

[bigsmooth125]

??? Straw man? For pointing out that some people want to carry an air compressor and pneumatic tools? Why can't you understand that others may have different experiences or preferences? How is that any less legitimate that needing 500 miles of range instead of 400? Point is that there are always going to be rare edge cases... there's no logic in catering to them.

I tried.

 

[BQst]

If the cybertruck trimotor will still have 500+ miles of range, that might fill the void? It would be a lot less convenient around town, but it could be a viable alternative? Or is the longest range configuration of the cybertruck going to be off the table too?

Ben

 

[nwdiver]

Or is the longest range configuration of the cybertruck going to be off the table too?

I would imagine that Tesla is going to aim for at least a 200 mile range for a CT pulling a trailer so an unladen CT should still be able to achieve 500 miles.

Another option would be a Tesla semi. I bet you could get a good ~2000 miles of range driving just the truck with no trailer

 

[Wannabeskibum]

Another option would be a Tesla semi. I bet you could get a good ~2000 miles of range driving just the truck with no trailer

Not going to lie some of those renders showing an RV version of the Tesla Semi are pretty awesome. If they made the semi/rv there would be a large demand for them and I would seriously consider it.

It is highly likely though the reason they are at least publicly indicating they are good on current range is due to battery constraints. They want to gain market share and force the industry to transition to EVs as soon as possible. Selling as many EVs as possible is the way to do this.

This is also why they are still focusing on insane drag times. The Plaid shows dominance to current ICE cars without using up a greater supply of batteries. It is hard to argue that a huge range isn't more useful to a larger population than being able to hit 60 mph by the time you leave my driveway ~105'.

Most likely my niche case is just going to have to wait a bit. Here is to hoping for a smooth 4680 ramp up.

 

[nwdiver]

It is highly likely though the reason they are at least publicly indicating they are good on current range is due to battery constraints.

I dunno. I agree with Elon that ~400 miles is plenty. Even 400 EPA miles which is ~300 real miles. Supposedly they deleted passenger lumbar support because it was 'almost never used'. Superchargers are spaced closely enough in CA now that the distance people drive between charging isn't constrained by SC spacing. There's a good chance Elons thoughts on range are data driven. If 95% of people on 500 mile trips stop every 120 miles and charge 3 or 4 times when they could make the trip with one charging stop... then clearly very few of them would use range exceeding 400 miles. It would be interesting to see those numbers. I know for me sitting in a car for >3 hours without stopping for 15-20 minutes is unpleasant.

 

[stromb0li]

I dunno. I agree with Elon that ~400 miles is plenty. Even 400 EPA miles which is ~300 real miles. Supposedly they deleted passenger lumbar support because it was 'almost never used'. Superchargers are spaced closely enough in CA now that the distance people drive between charging isn't constrained by SC spacing. There's a good chance Elons thoughts on range are data driven. If 95% of people on 500 mile trips stop every 120 miles and charge 3 or 4 times when they could make the trip with one charging stop... then clearly very few of them would use range exceeding 400 miles. It would be interesting to see those numbers. I know for me sitting in a car for >3 hours without stopping for 15-20 minutes is unpleasant.

Please come to the other 30 states that have farm land and deserts, where cities are spread hundreds of miles apart. If driving through the northern half of those states, please ensure it's winter and it's 0F blizzard conditions where you lose half of range (I agree, heat pump will help, but I doubt it'll address even 15% of the 50% that is lost today).

You are making arguments from what information you have driving your Tesla in California. Yes, I'm being a bit rude here making assumptions you haven't driven in these conditions, but your statements are taking into account conditions that are much more ideal than what many of us have and accounting for only a subset of how people use their vehicles everyday (driving to/from a desk job type work, friends families, etc).

If you want to label that 99% of the population is in the largest cities and tell people to constantly hit up superchargers, you can do that, but you will never help transform the EV industry / win over big oil/auto to move to electrification as people don't want to sit and charge their vehicles all day. You need to take your Tesla fanboy hat off and look at broader applications of how people use vehicles vs think about driving to the grocery store, office job, etc. People will be hauling items, making long trips to middle of nowhere, etc. for work; which you will not realistically see 400mi of range in any case in those conditions.

 

[FLRifleman]

I travel 1-2 times a month traveling to different events, and put on ~20k miles annually. For my use, a 300 mile range capability at 70 mph would fit my needs, provided there is adequate charging options available. This would be for situations where I don't need to tow anything. My greater concerns are battery life and battery costs. If these are not reasonable, then the mileage factor becomes irrelevant.

 

[nwdiver]

If you want to label that 99% of the population is in the largest cities and tell people to constantly hit up superchargers, you can do that, but you will never help transform the EV industry / win over big oil/auto to move to electrification as people don't want to sit and charge their vehicles all day.

LOL... inform Websters. An additional ~15 minutes per 5 hour period on the occasion a road trip exceeding 300 miles is needed has been redefined as 'all day'

If you want to be taken seriously then don't be absurdly hyperbolic. On a >300 mile road trip with V3 superchargers how much charging time would a 400 mile range vs 500 mile range really add? You leave with an extra 30kWh in your battery... and can charge at 250kW. That's ~8 minutes of added charge time. The few areas where the spacing of superchargers is insufficient would be better served with more superchargers instead of increasing the cost of cars by ~$10k not to mention the already limited supply of batteries.

 

[stromb0li]

LOL... inform Websters. An additional ~15 minutes per 5 hour period on the occasion a road trip exceeding 300 miles is needed has been redefined as 'all day'

If you want to be taken seriously then don't be absurdly hyperbolic. On a >300 mile road trip with V3 superchargers how much charging time would a 400 mile range vs 500 mile range really add? You leave with an extra 30kWh in your battery... and can charge at 250kW. That's ~8 minutes of added charge time. The few areas where the spacing of superchargers is insufficient would be better served with more superchargers instead of increasing the cost of cars by ~$10k not to mention the already limited supply of batteries.

Do you drive to areas where superchargers can be 150mi+ apart?
Do you live in an area where you don't have access to v3 chargers (you are optimistically assuming the whole network is already v3)
Do you drive to areas that are below 32F?
Do you drive in areas where ice builds up and you need to use Tesla features to heat the vehicle (mirrors, wipers, etc)?
Do you drive in areas where it's not uncommon to have 20-40MPH head winds when driving?
Do you tow a tailor that is filled with heavy parts?
Do you have allotted time to stop for 30+ minute charges on business trips?
Do you drive to a jobsite where power is not possible to charge your vehicle while working?

You still haven't answered practical driving use cases and are only using ideal conditions to cite why 400mi of range is ok.

 

[nwdiver]

Do you drive to areas where superchargers can be 150mi+ apart?
--Reason why I pick at least 150mi is in the winter, you will have to charge to 300mi due to range loss, which won't take 15 minutes; before you say 50% is too much, keep in mind safety; you don't want to be stranded with no heat in a blizzard because you didn't charge enough to account for loss of range due to extra power consumption for heat.
Do you live in an area where you don't have access to v3 chargers (you are optimistically assuming the whole network is already v3)
Do you drive to areas that are below 32F?
Do you drive in areas where ice builds up and you need to use Tesla features to heat the vehicle (mirrors, wipers, etc)?
Do you drive in areas where it's not uncommon to have 20-40MPH head winds when driving?
Do you tow a tailor that is filled with heavy parts?
Do you have allotted time to stop for 30+ minute charges on business trips?
Do you drive to a jobsite where power is not possible to charge your vehicle while working?

You still haven't answered practical driving use cases and are only using ideal conditions to cite why 400mi of range is ok.

Actually yes to all of those except the trailer... since I don't have a hitch. The first supercharger I hit when I travel to WA is ~320 miles. If I had ~500 miles of range I could make it without stopping but I'd take a Supercharger halfway over more range.

So you'd spend another ~$10k to save 15 minutes when you travel >300 miles? So 400 miles of range isn't enough but 500 would be? Not 600 or 700 or 800?

 

[stromb0li]

Actually yes to all of those except the trailer... since I don't have a hitch.

So you'd spend another ~$10k to save 15 minutes when you travel >300 miles?

Please tell me how you have 300 mi of range in 32F or less temperature, with 20mph headwind, driving 75mph, with a loaded up car, while driving in a blizzard and won't have any range anxiety. Does your Tesla come with Mr. Fusion?

 

[nwdiver]

Please tell me how you have 300 mi of range in 32F or less temperature, with 20mph headwind, driving 75mph, with a loaded up car, while driving in a blizzard and won't have any range anxiety. Does your Tesla come with Mr. Fusion?

Never said I did. But why would I be bothered by a quick 10 minute break to p/u another ~160 miles of range if I need it? We need more superchargers... not more range. If your argument is we need more superchargers... I agree 110%. They should be no more than 50 miles apart.

 

[stromb0li]

Never said I did. But why would I be bothered by a quick 10 minute break to p/u another ~160 miles of range if I need it?

Please tell me how your car can change from 0 to 300mi in 15 minutes. Please also tell me how you are going to drive 150mi if you are losing a heavy amount of range due to common weather conditions. You are back to the point that has been made by others and myself. People don't want to sit and charge several times on a trip, even if it's only 10-15 minutes per stop (and again, that assumes you are driving somewhere where you have the ability to stop at a v3 charger). If I stop and charge 2 or 3 times on a trip, you are talking about 45 minutes (ideally) vs a 5-10 minute stop for fuel in an ICE vehicle.

Yes, I am going to pay for the extra range because I don't want to get stranded trying to drive my Tesla with risk of freezing to death. I also need the range to make it to my destination since charging infra is horrible in many places in the USA.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes, I am going to pay for the extra range because I don't want to get stranded trying to drive my Tesla and freeze to death in my car and need the range to make it to my destination since charging infra is horrible in many places in the USA.

... wouldn't fixing the charging infrastructure be a better utilization of resources than oversizing batteries so you don't need a ~$120k 500 mile EV to not 'freeze to death in my car and need the range to make it to my destination since charging infra is horrible in many places in the USA.'?

It's not like we're that far off at least for Tesla. If the rate of SC deployment continues at its current pace there SHOULD be a SC within ~50 miles of any given point in the US in less than ~3 years. When we get to that point would a 500 mile range be worth the extra cost over 400 miles?

 

[stromb0li]

... wouldn't fixing the charging infrastructure be a better utilization of resources than oversizing batteries so you don't need a ~$120k 500 mile EV to not 'freeze to death in my car and need the range to make it to my destination since charging infra is horrible in many places in the USA.'?

No, you are talking about a utopias world where such infrastructure won't happen for at least a decade if not longer. You also don't address the issue that my charging time (aggregated) is going to go up the worse my weather conditions due to multiple stops (which people don't want to waste their time doing so). Further, if I tow/haul something (which is going to be common in many blue collar jobs), we'll see you in several decades because there's no way work is going to pay to have people sit in their car idling while they charge. As mentioned in my first post, even Tesla isn't using their own cars to do service in many areas because they know charging infra isn't built out to reach all their customers and that range and charge time will be a concern on productively.

To me, you are a Tesla / Elon fanboy and not focused on broader EV transformation. I don't mean this disrespectful and can respect your support for the brand. But I think this is a foolish statement by Tesla and more so Elon that they would insinuate there's no need to continue pushing the envelope here. If you are truly in the EV transformation long play (which was Elon's original vision), I would consider opening your mindset and looking at the broader applications and doors that open by pushing the limit of higher mileage battery packs. It pushes bounds in engineering, enables transition to renewable energy (ultimately leading to alleviating climate concerns), and enables applications that aren't possible today or that we may not have yet thought of.

 

[nwdiver]

No, you are talking about a utopias world where such infrastructure won't happen for at least a decade if not longer. You also don't address the issue that my charging time (aggregated) is going to go up the worse my weather conditions due to multiple stops (which people don't want to waste their time doing so). Further, if I tow/haul something (which is going to be common in many blue collar jobs), we'll see you in several decades because there's no way work is going to pay to have people sit in their car idling while they charge. As mentioned in my first post, even Tesla isn't using their own cars to do service in many areas because they know charging infra isn't built out to reach all their customers and that range and charge time will be a concern on productively.

To me, you are a Tesla / Elon fanboy and not focused on broader EV transformation. I don't mean this disrespectful and can respect your support for the brand. But I think this is a foolish statement by Tesla and more so Elon that they would stop pushing the envelope here. If you are truly in the EV transformation long play (which was Elon's original vision), I would consider opening your mindset and looking at the broader applications and doors that open by pushing the limit of a higher mileage battery packs. It pushes bounds in engineering, enables transition to renewable energy (ultimately leading to alleviating climate concerns), and enables applications that aren't possible today or that we may not have yet thought of.

??? This was two years ago... you don't think we can get that down to 50 miles in 3 years? Really? And chargers are getting faster.

Would you prefer a Tesla with 400 miles of range or a LUCID air with 500 miles.... and the EA charging network?

 

[stromb0li]

I addressed the 99% population question earlier; you did not respond to the statement.

Yes, I'd take a different vehicle with 500 miles that yields me 250mi realistic miles over a Tesla that has 200 mi of realistic range (for example). That's 50 miles further I can go on my drive that may enable me to get somewhere I cannot today and 50 miles less of me taking up charging infrastructure or my time. If that extra 50 miles on my 200 mi drive is enough to get me to my destination or home, then the charging network doesn't become applicable or a problem to scale as EV transformation expands exponentially. A 300 mi pack, which could be advertised at 600mi in ideal conditions, is a realistic ask as a 300mi drive is not uncommon for people to make today and why I'm interested in Cybertruck over Ford Lightning. If Ford Lightning offered the pack, I'd seriously consider it.