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500 + Mile Range Debate

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Even if you're traveling LA => NY the difference in the taper curve for a car with 500 miles of range vs 400 miles might be ~30 minutes. I'd be surprised if it's even 1 hour. That's also more dependent on battery chemistry than battery size. Until the new S the 3 actually charged faster with a smaller battery.
I just checked on ABRP for a drive I have coming up - Dallas to Lansing, MI. 18:24 in my LR 3, 22:04 if I had a SR+.
 
I just checked on ABRP for a drive I have coming up - Dallas to Lansing, MI. 18:24 in my LR 3, 22:04 if I had a SR+.
That makes sense over that type of distance (1200 miles) you will end spending 1-2 hours more time charging in a SR+ compared to the 3AWD.

The reality is there is always a "need" for more real range within reason. I think the 3AWD is damn close to that point but another 50-100 miles of real world highway range would be the sweet spot for most people. Right now you are charging every 200 miles or so which is not bad but to be on par with an ICE we need more long term.
 
It's saying 18:13 for the S, though I don't think we have any info on the characteristics of the taper as compared to the 3. I doubt if it is too much better - I expect improvements there with the 4680's.

So 80 miles of additional range in the 2021 S over the LR 3 reduced charge time by 11 minutes on a 1151 mile trip? So I was pretty close with ~30 minutes LA => NY.

Well... soon enough Tesla will have more than enough data to decide what range makes the most sense. There's always going to be a few people that want a gazillion miles of range even if the other ~99% of us only actually use ~350 or so. And even most of the gazillion milers will probably only be using ~350 or so.
 
That makes sense over that type of distance (1200 miles) you will end spending 1-2 hours more time charging in a SR+ compared to the 3AWD.

The reality is there is always a "need" for more real range within reason. I think the 3AWD is damn close to that point but another 50-100 miles of real world highway range would be the sweet spot for most people. Right now you are charging every 200 miles or so which is not bad but to be on par with an ICE we need more long term.
We did a 1000 mile Tesla road trip convoy back in December 2020 with a 2018 LR AWD 3 and a 2017 S100D. Since the S100D had slightly more range, it would've been able to skip a Supercharger or two that the 3 had to stop at. (We ended up stopping and charging as well so we could help walk the dogs.) Since the Model 3 had to charge longer to a higher SoC in order to make it to several Superchargers, the Model S often finished charging before the 3. There were no V3 Superchargers along the route so the 3 didn't have any charging advantage there.

When I've done other road trips across Kansas and Nebraska, I've often pulled in driving the S100D and seen a Model 3 or two charging. I usually end up leaving before they do. Part of this could be the S100D's larger battery capacity, part could be the lack of v3 Supercharing speeds...or maybe just that those 3 owners didn't know to "splash and dash" when Supercharging.
 
Here's more data for Dallas, TX to Lansing, MI:

Cartotal trip timedifftravel timediffcharging timediffsupercharger stops
MY LR (2020)19:581:1417:100:342:480:408
M3 SR+ (2020)21:282:4418:151:393:131:0510
M3 SR+ (2021)21:142:3018:051:293:091:0110
M3 LR Aero AWD (2020)19:260:4217:030:272:230:158
M3 LR (2021)19:070:2316:420:062:250:176
MS LR+ (2020)19:180:3416:420:062:360:286
MS LR (2021) - alpha18:440:0016:360:002:080:005
MS Plaid (2021) - alpha18:590:1516:510:152:080:006

The SR+ variants have an extra hour charge time and are pushed onto a slightly longer route, using another 1.5h. If there were more superchargers, the additional 1.5h driving wouldn't be necessary - though some driving would still be necessary. Let's say each of the 5 extra stops takes 5 minutes in routing. The shorter distance should shave off another ~10 minutes at least from the necessary charging. That would give a trip time of 20:04.
 
Here's more data for Dallas, TX to Lansing, MI:

Cartotal trip timedifftravel timediffcharging timediffsupercharger stops
MY LR (2020)19:581:1417:100:342:480:408
M3 SR+ (2020)21:282:4418:151:393:131:0510
M3 SR+ (2021)21:142:3018:051:293:091:0110
M3 LR Aero AWD (2020)19:260:4217:030:272:230:158
M3 LR (2021)19:070:2316:420:062:250:176
MS LR+ (2020)19:180:3416:420:062:360:286
MS LR (2021) - alpha18:440:0016:360:002:080:005
MS Plaid (2021) - alpha18:590:1516:510:152:080:006

The SR+ variants have an extra hour charge time and are pushed onto a slightly longer route, using another 1.5h. If there were more superchargers, the additional 1.5h driving wouldn't be necessary - though some driving would still be necessary. Let's say each of the 5 extra stops takes 5 minutes in routing. The shorter distance should shave off another ~10 minutes at least from the necessary charging. That would give a trip time of 20:04.

And I'd imagine most people would split that into two days so hopefully you can find a place with L2 to stop for the night to get a full charge. That would further narrow the gap a bit. I think >400 miles you're really limited more biologically. :)
 
And I'd imagine most people would split that into two days so hopefully you can find a place with L2 to stop for the night to get a full charge. That would further narrow the gap a bit. I think >400 miles you're really limited more biologically. :)
Like I stated before, I would like to be able to travel a real 4 hrs (80 mph, so 320 miles) between stops. We used to do a 3:45-4:15 drive (depending on traffic) to our cabin all the time without stopping with no problem, even when my kids were small. I think there's lots of people that would drive that long in one leg. With an EV you are probably talking near 500 miles of rated range to do 320 miles at 80 mph, especially if the weather is cold or rainy.

My 2018 LR AWD shows about 290 miles at 100% now, so that already slows me just a bit compared to a new 2021 now rated at ~350. The next part of the equation is efficiency when comparing the S to the 3. Since the 3 is more efficient you don't need as many kWhr's to go X miles. That means less time charging, but the smaller battery hits the taper sooner - it gets to be a pretty complicated formula.
 
Like I stated before, I would like to be able to travel a real 4 hrs (80 mph, so 320 miles) between stops. We used to do a 3:45-4:15 drive (depending on traffic) to our cabin all the time without stopping with no problem, even when my kids were small. I think there's lots of people that would drive that long in one leg. With an EV you are probably talking near 500 miles of rated range to do 320 miles at 80 mph, especially if the weather is cold or rainy.

My 2018 LR AWD shows about 290 miles at 100% now, so that already slows me just a bit compared to a new 2021 now rated at ~350. The next part of the equation is efficiency when comparing the S to the 3. Since the 3 is more efficient you don't need as many kWhr's to go X miles. That means less time charging, but the smaller battery hits the taper sooner - it gets to be a pretty complicated formula.

How much would you pay to save ~15 minutes of charge time on a 18 hour trip?
 
The big difference will be during winter on a cold day with bad weather affecting your range may be by 40% compare to a sunny day.

You then really want to avoid any additional stop at a supercharger, especially if other cars might already be waiting for a charging spot.

It will be interesting to see how much the new heat pump narrows the winter-summer range gap. Tesla packs the space between the cells with that blue goop. If they can find a material with the correct properties that also has a high specific heat capacity that could also help a lot.
 
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It will be interesting to see how much the new heat pump narrows the winter-summer range gap. Tesla packs the space between the cells with that blue goop. If they can find a material with the correct properties that also has a high specific heat capacity that could also help a lot.
Good point, Bjørn Nyland performed some comparisons, I need to check his foundings.
In particular Bjørn compared the efficiency between preheating the battery using the motor stator and scavenging heat with the heat pump.

Another way to increase range is also to limit your speed aroud 70-75 mph instead of 85-90 mph...
 
This should come with every EV with ~500 miles of range ;)

Screen Shot 2021-07-01 at 1.24.37 AM.png
 
So 80 miles of additional range in the 2021 S over the LR 3 reduced charge time by 11 minutes on a 1151 mile trip? So I was pretty close with ~30 minutes LA => NY.

Well... soon enough Tesla will have more than enough data to decide what range makes the most sense. There's always going to be a few people that want a gazillion miles of range even if the other ~99% of us only actually use ~350 or so. And even most of the gazillion milers will probably only be using ~350 or so.
I would like a gazillion miles of range 🙋🏽‍♂️! After looking more into my daily commutes since ownership in March. A realistic 270-300 miles of range would be enough for my daily use case. Of course, I am probably the 1% of users for the amount of daily driving I do. I have noticed Indiana weather affects my range more than anything. I just installed a Nema 5-50 plug at my business to help charge while I am working there. This investment has lowered my frustration on the range of the MY.

I am wondering now if the 4680 cells will bring the additional range or will Tesla use the 4680 but stick with a similar kWh battery pack...
 
If 400 is good, then 500 is better.
Remember 11 is better than 10
1625951002427.png


Having 500 mile range is not so much about range. It's more about battery management. 10% = 50 miles. That's a lot of miles for 10pct. It becomes easier to hover around 50% providing better battery longevity. This alone is a great selling point.
 
500 miles isn’t needed if you go along major interstates on a road trip to most bigger cities. We do a lot of cross country trips and I totally agree with that sentiment.

But if you plan trips into rural or country areas that might last a few days without any nearby chargers… if definitely is desirable. Once you consider some degradation and daily loss. Also consider towing, we have a CT reserved but I hope range is closer to 600 to be useful for towing into country/camping locations.

I think we will still see a 500 mile model S once new tabless batteries implement into the build.
 
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55mph - is no one patient enough to drive 55 ??
My 1989 Saab still gets 23-25 city and upto 36 on highway @ 55. What range do you get at 55 ?? anyone?
I suppose most don't care about saving the few pennies I save on gas - but then I'm poorer than most, I guess.

IS 55 reasonable/safe on today's Interstates ?? [I used to drive a lot 10-12 hours days in 13 Western States stopping at lumber yards & contractors - no more.
Driving anything less than 70 on the HWY in most of the states I have been through would be inviting trouble. If you can’t drive 70 or above just take the ICE
 
At what cost?

I've also spoken to families doing supercharger trips that enjoyed the built-in breaks.
You’ll find someone that likes almost anything but I’m guessing the line for people who do not mind paying a premium for more range is considerably longer than those that are totally cool or “enjoy” the multiple 30-45 min charging breaks required for longer road trips.
 
Sure... but if only 1% of buyers are willing to pony up ~$5k for an additional 100 miles of range that car won't be built. How much extra would you pay for 500 miles over 400 miles? My price limit would probably be ~$100... it just wouldn't be that useful.
I would guess that the take rate will be much higher than 60% for those willing to pay more than $5k for 100mi extra range. No offense but if you really think the take rate would be ~1% at $5k I really wonder who your in group is. Do they currently own Tesla’s? Maybe it varies by state but where I am $5k more would not but a major consideration for most of the people buying any model of Tesla. I get that in some states you have people “stretching” - especially if their state offers rebate incentives- but not so much here (Midwest). $5k would be a non factor (I would assume more like $10k would be the actual cost increase for 100 mi).
Hell you have some people paying $10k for features that they have not (and may never) receive - aka FSD. Gotta think more people would be more willing to plop that down on range vs “FSD”, right? Lol!