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Autocross- SCCA EV-X Class vs. SS
- Thread starter RacerChris
- Start date
superflyrolla
Member
Just remember, if you don't crush that GT3, GT4, NSX, and every fully prepped ST car that shows up in your Model 3 with some camber arms and springs, you are just an objectively bad driver. It's just facts! 
RIP EVX.
I'll probably be running Hoosiers in ASP with just a 0.01 PAX penalty.
If we want to keep this constructive instead of just mourning the EVX class, we need a concrete proposal to Rick on how to tweak his procedure, so it does not screw up low-attendance classes by giving zero weight to courses where the car sucks.
I've had zero time to devote to data scraping, sadly. I may have some time around the Christmas break, but not sooner...
I *think* the following tweak to the process *may* work:
1) Grab pax times for the top driver in every class, forget the 105% cutoff at the event level
2) Look in other event results at the same club/region by the same driver/car combo. Count them if the driver/car has been in the top 105% at least X times
That will at least allow for some events where the model 3 sucks to have some weight.
I'll probably be running Hoosiers in ASP with just a 0.01 PAX penalty.
If we want to keep this constructive instead of just mourning the EVX class, we need a concrete proposal to Rick on how to tweak his procedure, so it does not screw up low-attendance classes by giving zero weight to courses where the car sucks.
I've had zero time to devote to data scraping, sadly. I may have some time around the Christmas break, but not sooner...
I *think* the following tweak to the process *may* work:
1) Grab pax times for the top driver in every class, forget the 105% cutoff at the event level
2) Look in other event results at the same club/region by the same driver/car combo. Count them if the driver/car has been in the top 105% at least X times
That will at least allow for some events where the model 3 sucks to have some weight.
I keep wanting to do this too. But your post reminded me of an earlier one of yours where Rick said that there was a club in AZ that proved that EV's were quicker in 2021, so I had to go look quickly.
I looked at that club in 2022, and here's how the quickest EV's did in PAX in 2022 (as a percent of fastest PAX): 102.9%, 103.0%, 103.1%, 100%, 100.9%.
Using Rick's process, this should REDUCE the 2023 PAX- on 3 out of 5 events, EV's ran slower than 102.5% PAX, but within 105%.
Meanwhile, same club which was argued had pro drivers in SS, here's how SS did: 102.5%, 101.6%, 100.8%, 100.2%, 100%
Literally 5/5 were at or above 102.5%. This is supposed to drive PAX up. And like I said before- this is a club where the fastest SS car is a 2017 Corvette, which is a completely non-competitive SS car now. Yet EV went up MORE than SS.
I flat out don't see where Rick is getting his data that EV's keep getting faster than SS cars. All I see here is EV's being "assumed" to be faster, and just adding some time to the SS PAX. For EV to have really creeped from 0.824 in 2020 to 0.838 in 2023, using exactly the same car, there should just be endless data that Teslas just crush the PAX every time they show up. Yet nobody can find that data, in fact quite the reverse.
We really need to start collecting all the 2022 PAX results we can find that have Teslas. I bet even using the 105% cutoff, there is not solid data that the PAX should have gone up in 2023.
Well, my own PAX can be split between two clubs.
Club one - moderately competitive, but really has only one pretty tight asphalt lot within reasonable driving distance.
I did 102.95% (on RS4s), 100%, 100%, and 109% (no clean runs).
Club two - a competitive region with a small asphalt +large concrete lot and national champs on Hoosiers. I did:
105.65%, 104.05%, 105.5%, 104.55%, 103.35%, 106.98%, 102.74%,
Had I not bothered to run in the second club, I would've added to the PAX. I think there are plenty of clubs out there with just one pretty tight venue where a Tesla would be very-very competitive unless course designers try really hard to neuter it with course design. And, to be fair, a lower EVX PAX would make a lot of members there quite unhappy.
Club one - moderately competitive, but really has only one pretty tight asphalt lot within reasonable driving distance.
I did 102.95% (on RS4s), 100%, 100%, and 109% (no clean runs).
Club two - a competitive region with a small asphalt +large concrete lot and national champs on Hoosiers. I did:
105.65%, 104.05%, 105.5%, 104.55%, 103.35%, 106.98%, 102.74%,
Had I not bothered to run in the second club, I would've added to the PAX. I think there are plenty of clubs out there with just one pretty tight venue where a Tesla would be very-very competitive unless course designers try really hard to neuter it with course design. And, to be fair, a lower EVX PAX would make a lot of members there quite unhappy.
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Pretty sure I found the club(s) messing up the EV-X PAX. While simultaneously being maybe the best data set around for what an EV-X really is.
Let's first start with the 2022 SCCA Nationals in SS.
First, apparently you need a GT3/GT4 to win SS today. No surprise. But look at that list- Doug, Jason, Jay, all in the same club. How cool!
Doug is the one that got called out as a good reference in 2021 when he got out-PAX'd the 3 times he ran against an EV. As mentioned before, every time he did that at his local club, it was in his 2017 Corvette, not a GT3/GT4.
So yeah, an EV-X beating a multi time national champ means that the EV is probably faster than that car. But that car wasn't a current winning SS car. The last time a C7 trophied at Nationals? 2019. Doug Rowse. He didn't win either. SS PAX was 0.821 that year. It's 0.832 now.
All of that previous analysis was for 2021 with an EV-X PAX of 0.826 and an SS of 0.823. So what happened in 2022 at the same club when SS went to 0.830 and EV to 0.835?
Yep, every time, the SS and EV cars are either super close, or SS wins by a lot. And notice that rarely were SS or EV-X cars the fastest anymore. In fact, they often hit 975, the exact average target for a car, despite being driven by national trophy holders. This club has some amazing drivers.
OK, so what about this other club? Let me introduce you to the AZ Southern Border SCCA, right down the road.
First, they have the best results website ever. The filtering and stuff is amazing. You have to check it out.
In 2022, they had EV's show up over and over. For the first 5/6 events, two Teslas show up and run FTD PAX. Wow. That will mess up the low attendance EV PAX something fierce. This is probably why we have a 0.838 PAX. But no SS cars ever show.
8th event, they run 991's. The top car? Another Model 3. Driven by Jay Balducci from above. No SS cars.
9th event- Jay shows up again. 3 Teslas run 1000/998/994. These guys are CLOSE. Clearly those other Tesla drivers aren't slouches. No SS cars.
10th Event. Jay runs a 976 in the Tesla. Who beats him? Jeff in a C7 (1000) and Doug in a C7 (985). The first time any SS cars show up, and driven by national champs, but not in the top tier SS cars.
11th and Final Event. Jason shows up in a GT4 and runs the 1000. Jay runs a 994 in a GT4. The Tesla runs 990. Nice, but that's a full 0.01 PAX off.
What's the point here? The point is that we have some national talent down in AZ driving both SS and EV-X cars and competing against each other. The EV-X basically never beats the SS car. The EV's only show up and kill when there isn't a national level competitor in an SS car. Which is exactly what PAX is supposed to ignore.
This all mirrors my experience here in Seattle- where a STU national champ has co-driven a Model 3 a few times. Only time he came close to winning PAX was in the rain, and that was 2 years ago when the PAX split was even lower.
This makes the split in 2023 of SS being 0.832 and EV being 0.838 a farce. EV and SS are dead competitive, with a slight hand to SS cars. If SS is a 0.832 PAX, EV should be 0.831 or even 0.830.
Thank you for reading my essay.
Let's first start with the 2022 SCCA Nationals in SS.
First, apparently you need a GT3/GT4 to win SS today. No surprise. But look at that list- Doug, Jason, Jay, all in the same club. How cool!
Doug is the one that got called out as a good reference in 2021 when he got out-PAX'd the 3 times he ran against an EV. As mentioned before, every time he did that at his local club, it was in his 2017 Corvette, not a GT3/GT4.
So yeah, an EV-X beating a multi time national champ means that the EV is probably faster than that car. But that car wasn't a current winning SS car. The last time a C7 trophied at Nationals? 2019. Doug Rowse. He didn't win either. SS PAX was 0.821 that year. It's 0.832 now.
All of that previous analysis was for 2021 with an EV-X PAX of 0.826 and an SS of 0.823. So what happened in 2022 at the same club when SS went to 0.830 and EV to 0.835?
Yep, every time, the SS and EV cars are either super close, or SS wins by a lot. And notice that rarely were SS or EV-X cars the fastest anymore. In fact, they often hit 975, the exact average target for a car, despite being driven by national trophy holders. This club has some amazing drivers.
OK, so what about this other club? Let me introduce you to the AZ Southern Border SCCA, right down the road.
First, they have the best results website ever. The filtering and stuff is amazing. You have to check it out.
In 2022, they had EV's show up over and over. For the first 5/6 events, two Teslas show up and run FTD PAX. Wow. That will mess up the low attendance EV PAX something fierce. This is probably why we have a 0.838 PAX. But no SS cars ever show.
8th event, they run 991's. The top car? Another Model 3. Driven by Jay Balducci from above. No SS cars.
9th event- Jay shows up again. 3 Teslas run 1000/998/994. These guys are CLOSE. Clearly those other Tesla drivers aren't slouches. No SS cars.
10th Event. Jay runs a 976 in the Tesla. Who beats him? Jeff in a C7 (1000) and Doug in a C7 (985). The first time any SS cars show up, and driven by national champs, but not in the top tier SS cars.
11th and Final Event. Jason shows up in a GT4 and runs the 1000. Jay runs a 994 in a GT4. The Tesla runs 990. Nice, but that's a full 0.01 PAX off.
What's the point here? The point is that we have some national talent down in AZ driving both SS and EV-X cars and competing against each other. The EV-X basically never beats the SS car. The EV's only show up and kill when there isn't a national level competitor in an SS car. Which is exactly what PAX is supposed to ignore.
This all mirrors my experience here in Seattle- where a STU national champ has co-driven a Model 3 a few times. Only time he came close to winning PAX was in the rain, and that was 2 years ago when the PAX split was even lower.
This makes the split in 2023 of SS being 0.832 and EV being 0.838 a farce. EV and SS are dead competitive, with a slight hand to SS cars. If SS is a 0.832 PAX, EV should be 0.831 or even 0.830.
Thank you for reading my essay.
"TYFYI"
I whole heartily agree with this. I just hope they will try to make EVs competitive considering the automotive shift to EVs/hybrids
Rodney!
Looking for a hot receptacle
I have discussed the M3P with many solo elite, including SEB brass... Basically, it was universally agreed that the M3P should NOT be in SS.
I have heard "You cannot class a moving target" more then a few times. The problem is many of the membership are scared of it, especially after the OTA HP bump. Some of that is misinformation, some of that is understanding on how the car works, and some of it is just general EV hate (political or Elon based).
I have heard "You cannot class a moving target" more then a few times. The problem is many of the membership are scared of it, especially after the OTA HP bump. Some of that is misinformation, some of that is understanding on how the car works, and some of it is just general EV hate (political or Elon based).
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Personally, I no longer care that it's in SS. They gave us the EV class, which allows simple. street-able mods that make a noticeable difference in performance, and gives us a good playground to show what EV's can do without being buried in ASP with mods or SS or even AS without.
This is why I am so focused on EV PAX now though- because that is what is insane. It's supposed to be data driven, and I just don't think the data supports "a Model 3 with springs and camber is faster than any production car ever made. By a LOT."
SK360
Member
This is such a garbage argument. Sure, if the car had gotten any more than that initial power bump... maybe I can see it. but we haven't gotten anything since 2019. With OBD3 over the air updates will become common place no matter the powertrain of the vehicle..
In a very real sense, the newer cars are actually slower. Taller, softer springs, some small power changes that aren't all good, and they weigh more (larger batteries, more stuff in the car).
It is a totally garbage argument overall because new cars and special editions come out all the time and have to be integrated in the middle of the year. Nothing is stopping Porsche from coming out with a GT3 AutoX special package that whoops everyone for a year. Lotus did this years ago when they suddenly added a LSD as an option to the Elise for Autocrossers- which made that car a lot quicker, but didn't cause the classification to change as it was still an Elise and was a factory option.
At least with OBD3 all owners get those upgrades instead of only the newest owners.
superflyrolla
Member
Electrified Vehicle Advisory Committee Charges Forward
SCCA’s Electrified Vehicle Advisory Committee (EVAC) has released proposed guidelines and rulesets for EVs and three EV racing classes. These docum...
www.scca.com
Anyone read this yet? Specifically, the SCREV could have impact on solo events. I probably don't understand all of it.
1) We have to put a dumb lightning bolt symbol on our cars?
2) No charging in pit or grid
3) How many local events will refuse EVs because they don't have a set of rubber gloves, face shields, and insulated hooks?
Electrified Vehicle Advisory Committee Charges Forward
SCCA’s Electrified Vehicle Advisory Committee (EVAC) has released proposed guidelines and rulesets for EVs and three EV racing classes. These docum...
Anyone read this yet? Specifically, the SCREV could have impact on solo events. I probably don't understand all of it.
1) We have to put a dumb lightning bolt symbol on our cars?
2) No charging in pit or grid
3) How many local events will refuse EVs because they don't have a set of rubber gloves, face shields, and insulated hooks?
2) I'm not charging, I'm maintaining battery temp.
SK360
Member
I have to put a lightning bolt on my car so people can figure out a Tesla is electric?
These are dumb.
These are dumb.
SK360
Member
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