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Battery conditioning power draw in cold weather

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I don't believe it's ever been proven that the car would heat the battery in that situation. The car will wake up from time to time to charge the 12V but that should be all. I don't think being plugged makes a difference here.
The battery should degrade less in cold weather. The manual does state not to leave the battery at -30C or lower for more than 24h at a time however so it might be detrimental in that case.
I have left my M3P 2021 several times at below -30C both connected and not connected with the battery temp down to about -20C or maybe slighlty below.
It did never warm the battery, just the regular charging of the LV-bat about once a day.
I have dome the same with my ’23 MSP, down to -41C with the same result.

I never have let it cool more than to around 20C cell temp (give or take) and at that point I have activated charging just to heat the battery.

I am very skeptical to the statement that it would heat the battery by itself.
Just warming/jeeping the battery on my MSP to about freezing temp took more or less all the 2.3kW used.
Doing it without having the car coupled would consume all the battery in no time.
Doing it coupled would at a bill for electicity.

I think Teslas statement not to leace the car in -30C or below for more than one day/ 24hrs is to make sure the battery will not get to cold, and that no battery heating will be performed.
If you leave the car for a week where I live, at this time of the year its probable thay it could encounter a week with -30C. (We had two weeks of very cold (-30 to -43C) efter new years eve, than a couple of medium cold, and then a new week of -30C.

Even a full battery would be empty after a few days (or stopped hesting at 20%), then it still would be as cold after about one day.

I did not take a picture at -20C, just started the UMC charging, but -19C here.
Not a single percent SOC used before I connected the UMC, nor any otjer info in teslafi than the regular LV batt charging.
IMG_6731.jpeg



Cold day at the office -40C official temperature!
IMG_6725.jpeg
 
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Yes, it looks like -25 would indeed be a problem for 120V charging and also a significant power consumption issue for 240V charging.
How many amphs can you do on the 120V?

We have 230V here in Scandinavia.
I have charged several times in -25 - -30C outside my mother in laws place.
Using 10Amphs 230V ( = 2.3kW) makes it quite slow. About half the energy is used to heat the battery.
Using 13A 230V ( 3kW) works quite fine and adds about 2kWh / hour so not really quick but at least most of the energy ends up in the car.
 
We're on 120V... on a basic circuit like we typically have for outside plugs (15A) we can only pull 12A so a total of 1.44kW.
Interresting!

Se mostly have 10A fused outlets but can set 13A in the car. (It reduces by itself if the voltage droops too much or if the UMC plug senses a overheat in the connector).

1.44kW will be on the weak side in very cold…
 
i was at at supercharger (250kwh) and it was 17' degrees out and my car was preconditoned------all I got was 35kwh----from a SUPERCHARGER ?

i went to the supercharger for speed-at 35kwh I should have receieved at DISCOUNT, instead I was billed full price. Battery warmer came on after like 10 mintes and the so called "speed" increased to 50kwh. In addition I charged AFTER midnight, you know off peak hours, no one else there just me, yet NO DISCOUNT, WTF is up with that.

Recap: low speed, off peak hours at a supercharger, no one else charging and NO DISCOUNT, come on Tesla you need to change that. Compensation for extra slow speeds, after midnight......rate should adjust accordingly.
 
I am very skeptical to the statement that it would heat the battery by itself.
Just warming/jeeping the battery on my MSP to about freezing temp took more or less all the 2.3kW used.
Doing it without having the car coupled would consume all the battery in no time.
Doing it coupled would at a bill for electicity.
I'm pleased to hear that at least Tesla does not consume battery energy to heat the battery. I have read on a Bolt EV forum that the battery will be used to keep the battery temperature at around 0C or until the SOC falls to 40%. I dunno, there are so many contradictory claims floating about in various forums that it is difficult to separate fact from fiction. And, of course, the dealers know nothing on the topic but I wouldn't trust what they said in any case. I wish the manufacturers would however be more forthcoming on the matter (I have perused several Owner's Manuals from different manufacturers and found nothing on the topic except that it is advisable to keep the vehicle plugged in during cold weather).
 
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I am very skeptical to the statement that it would heat the battery by itself.
Just warming/jeeping the battery on my MSP to about freezing temp took more or less all the 2.3kW used.
Doing it without having the car coupled would consume all the battery in no time.
I think there is near unanimous agreement that the cars will never do that heating if they are parked and not plugged in.

I think Teslas statement not to leace the car in -30C or below for more than one day/ 24hrs is to make sure the battery will not get to cold, and that no battery heating will be performed.
If you leave the car for a week where I live, at this time of the year its probable thay it could encounter a week with -30C. (We had two weeks of very cold (-30 to -43C) efter new years eve, than a couple of medium cold, and then a new week of -30C.
I think that is what some of us are still curious about and haven't seen tested with evidence. If staying that cold for a long time is actually damaging, and Tesla warns not to do it, then the sensible remedy should be simply to plug it in. If it has a source of energy to draw from to prevent damage and won't be depleting the battery, shouldn't it use that? I would think so, but I don't recall seeing any answer on that either way.

So I would love to see a car sit in a -40 C situation for a week, hooked up to a wall connector that has an energy meter running to see if it draws any power to keep it above -30 C battery temperature.
 
i was at at supercharger (250kwh) and it was 17' degrees out and my car was preconditoned------all I got was 35kwh----from a SUPERCHARGER ?

New to Tesla ?

How did you precondition? By navigating to a supercharger or with the car parked, like scheduled departure?
These are two completely different things, schdeuled departure only heat the battery to be able to ise regen = a few degrees Celcius above freezing.

Navigate to a supercharger is heatibg the battery to about 48Celcius for the 250kW superchargers.

Also, during battery preconditioning with ”navigate to a supercharger” the battery temp heats by about 1C per minute. In winter the battery can start at -10 or -15C or so, meaning that it takes well above obe hour to reach the set temp for supercharging. Having a RWD wit only one motor producing heat will abput double the time needed.

Also, 250kW will most often only be seen at below 20% SOC, and 100kW not above 50-60% SOC.
Arriving with 80% will probably set you at 35kW even if the battery was sufficiently heated.
i went to the supercharger for speed-at 35kwh I should have receieved at DISCOUNT, instead I was billed full price. Battery warmer came on after like 10 mintes and the so called "speed" increased to 50kwh. In addition I charged AFTER midnight, you know off peak hours, no one else there just me, yet NO DISCOUNT, WTF is up with that.

Recap: low speed, off peak hours at a supercharger, no one else charging and NO DISCOUNT, come on Tesla you need to change that. Compensation for extra slow speeds, after midnight......rate should adjust accordingly.

I have never seen low charging speeds yet at Tesla SuC.

I always precondition at least one hour if possible and I mostly see 250-260kW on the car display even below -30C.
 
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I think there is near unanimous agreement that the cars will never do that heating if they are parked and not plugged in.
In the swedish forums and facebook groups its not.
I guess more or less any “fact” you see about batteries etc. is wrong.

One interesting thing is how to handle the car if you have a unexpected behaviour.
I learned the same week I bought my first Tesla that you should use the menu and shut down the car, as that what is written in the manual.
Holding the two steering wheels buttons down restarts only the touch screen, also by the manual.

I see at least one post every day on (Swedish) Facebook groups about that the car do not work as it should and the recommendation is to use the steering wheel button to reboot the car (for just about any reason, for exampke that the charging port doesnt open as it should).

The most fun part about that is that the manual specifically states that pressing the brake at the same time as rebooting the touch screen does not have any effect and that it do not change anything.

Still 50% of the posts it about “press the brake for a extra deep reboot” :D

I think that is what some of us are still curious about and haven't seen tested with evidence. If staying that cold for a long time is actually damaging,
From all I have seen in research there has been no cold tests that shows that extreme low temps is bad at all.
The lower the temp the lower the calendar aging. Panasonic NCR (NCA Chemistry) has down to -20C in the spec for storage, but I have seen tests down to -40C with no damage (on the contrary virtually no calendar aging)
I do not know why Tesla has set the maximum one day below -30C but I follow that by activating charging (to heat the battery) when the car is parked at work for one week in cold wx.

It is (very) possible that the -30C ”rule” comes from the Panasonic min temp for discharging the battery, -20C.
If we drive the car and park it in -30C or colder it probably takes about a day for the battery to go beyond -20C.
If we can not begin the use by connecting the charger and get the battery heated, the battery need to heat itself or drive cold, both will include discharging below -20C in this case, which is not good for the battery.

and Tesla warns not to do it, then the sensible remedy should be simply to plug it in. If it has a source of energy to draw from to prevent damage and won't be depleting the battery, shouldn't it use that? I would think so, but I don't recall seeing any answer on that either way.
I do not know for battery temps below about -20C, as I have activated jte charging to heat the battery.

But I know that down to about -20C cell temp (and ambient down to -40C) there is no battery heating done, with or without the car connected.

For example right now the car is not connected, and has been parked for 36 hours, with about -20 for the last 24hrs.

It is easy to see in Teslafi without even going to the car. The last day is here, the car has been sleeping all the time. Sleeping means the big battery disconnected and the small lithium LV batt can not heat anything. So its very clear no battery heating has been done since it was parked.
(I usually also check with SMT, and seeing the SOC with a 0.1% resulotion also males it clear. On the summer it uses ~0.1% and ~0.1 kWh each day =average 4-5W so if the car only used 0.3% and 0.3kWh for three days; there was no battery heating.
IMG_7043.jpeg


So I would love to see a car sit in a -40 C situation for a week, hooked up to a wall connector that has an energy meter running to see if it draws any power to keep it above -30 C battery temperature.
Yes it would be nice, but I would not do it with my car even if I actually do not think it hurt the battery.
For me its a hypotetical question really.

The swedish Facebook groups about tesla mostly seem to have the myth that the battery is always heated and newer let below 0C etc. The myths about battery warming is never ending and all are already confirmed to be myths when I checked.
The only thing left to check would be the -30C cell temp, but I think that doesnt need to be checked :)
 
A detail but you should say "consume" and not "pull"... the car will not pull more than what the charger provides, which is 1.4kW on a 12A 120V connection. It will consume more than 1.4kW of energy when conditioning the cabin and the battery. Hence the SOC will lower as the charger cannot provide it all.
 
Yes, a few Kwh. On a 120V 12amp charging connection, the car will probably pull a bit more power than the charger can provide and reduce the SOC by a few percent.
I just tried this, after the car had been sleeping for 48hrs in -20C, batt temp was about -20C also, so I connected the UMC charger and set it at 6amphs/230V so 1.38kW.
IMG_7052.jpeg

SOC actually reduced when warming the battery. Seem to have started charging by now.
 
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