Boeing Starliner First Crewed Launch

[ecarfan]

Trying to understand more about the part of Starliner that is thrown away. At https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/ I found this:

…a major difference between Starliner and SpaceX’s Crew Dragon. On Crew Dragon, all of the thrusters used for launch abort, attitude control, and orbital maneuvering are located on the crew capsule and reused for every mission: the Crew Dragon disposable “trunk” section contains only the solar panels, heat radiators, and aerodynamic fins for in-atmosphere aborts. On Starliner, however, the service module contains all of the thrusters except for a small complement on the capsule used solely for re-entry attitude control. There are 20 high thrust maneuvering engines, 28 low thrust attitude control and orbital adjustment thrusters, plus four launch abort engines, all in the service module. Since the service module is jettisoned before re-entry and burns up in the atmosphere, all of this hardware is expended on every Starliner flight. Because the thrusters are not returned to Earth, there will be no opportunity to examine them after the flight to determine the cause(s) of the multiple failures. As SpaceX has said on many occasions, reusability not only reduces cost, it improves reliability since in-flight problems can be diagnosed after vehicle return and components inspected between flights to monitor emerging life-cycle problems.

That is a huge amount of expensive hardware to throw away every time; 52 thrusters! And how can they diagnose the problems when they can never examine the hardware after it’s been used on a mission?

In contrast, Dragon has 16 Draco and 8 Superdraco engines, which of course are not thrown away.

The more I learn about Starliner the more ridiculous it seems; massively more expensive, more complicated, with non-stop problems, from a company that has said it will never again enter into a fixed-price contract because “it doesn’t work for us”. They don’t deserve another penny of our taxpayer dollars.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Trying to understand more about the part of Starliner that is thrown away. At https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/ I found this:

That is a huge amount of expensive hardware to throw away every time; 52 thrusters! And how can they diagnose the problems when they can never examine the hardware after it’s been used on a mission?

In contrast, Dragon has 16 Draco and 8 Superdraco engines, which of course are not thrown away.

The more I learn about Starliner the more ridiculous it seems; massively more expensive, more complicated, with non-stop problems, from a company that has said it will never again enter into a fixed-price contract because “it doesn’t work for us”. They don’t deserve another penny of our taxpayer dollars.

Yeah only a company with a culture of cost plus could have designed something so complex, non-reusable, and expensive. It’s ridiculous.

 

[gtae07]

Yeah only a company with a culture of cost plus could have designed something so complex, non-reusable, and expensive. It’s ridiculous.

It's "how we always did it". Starliner is modeled after Apollo, which did the same thing of throwing away the whole service module.

 

[Cosmacelf]

At this point NASA is wondering if it really needs redundant lift…

 

[JB47394]

At this point NASA is wondering if it really needs redundant lift…

NASA has to balance some technical issues with Starliner's thrusters against Elon's mercurial behavior. Nobody knows if he'll chuck it all tomorrow and decide that he's going to become a Bolivian fighter pilot. I think NASA will muddle through with Starliner and hope that more providers of manned launches will come online.

 

[Mike1080i]

At this point NASA is wondering if it really needs redundant lift…

They do, it just doesn't seem that Starliner is the answer. Give a crew-rated Dream Chaser a shot!

 

[ecarfan]

NASA has to balance some technical issues with Starliner's thrusters against Elon's mercurial behavior. Nobody knows if he'll chuck it all tomorrow and decide that he's going to become a Bolivian fighter pilot.

That does have a certain allure However SpaceX does have a contract with NASA with specific deliverables and I’m confident that Gwynne will ensure that the contract is fulfilled.

I think NASA will muddle through with Starliner and hope that more providers of manned launches will come online.

Yes, and of course NASA has a contract with Boeing and will insist that Boeing meets that contract. Hopefully someday BO will reach orbit, and eventually safely fly humans to LEO and beyond. But that seems like it is years away from happening.

 

[QtownTaxiGreg]

Return mission scrubbed to give more time to iinvestigate problems. A ride down in a Soyuz must be looking good about now.

 

[ecarfan]

Wow. Ars technica reports

NASA indefinitely delays return of Starliner to review propulsion data​

…this vehicle is only rated for a 45-day stay at the space station, and that clock began ticking on June 6. Moreover, it is not optimal that NASA feels the need to continue delaying the vehicle to get comfortable with its performance on the return journey to Earth. During a pair of news conferences since Starliner docked to the station officials have downplayed the overall seriousness of these issues—repeatedly saying Starliner is cleared to come home "in case of an emergency." But they have yet to fully explain why they are not yet comfortable with releasing Starliner to fly back to Earth under normal circumstances.

 

[JB47394]

"But they have yet to fully explain why they are not yet comfortable with releasing Starliner to fly back to Earth under normal circumstances."

Because they can't diagnose the problem once Starliner has returned. The part of the vehicle that has the problem is expended. It would be far better to diagnose it on orbit and have a clean return after even a month-long delay rather than return "on schedule" without having learned as much as possible. The ideal result is to nail this down and be done with it on this flight. A test flight.

 

[scaesare]

No doubt that more time to gather data is betterer, but at this point, with this many unplanned delays, even after they were aware of some of the situation on the ground prior to launch, one has to wonder how much of this is pure data gathering vs. actual risk.

I know they are trying to put a nice face on it, but it, but I have to think this has gotten dicier than they had planned.

 

[ecarfan]

Because they can't diagnose the problem once Starliner has returned. The part of the vehicle that has the problem is expended.

Yes, I understand that, as I discussed in my post #41 upthread.

But it seems that so far, Boeing and NASA are unable to satisfactorily diagnose the problems while Starliner is docked to the ISS. The return date has been repeatedly pushed back.

Yes, this is a “test flight” but it is the third flight (first crewed flight, of course). The current issues did not seem to occur during the second test flight, which was the first to reach the ISS, which was uncrewed. Or did I miss something about that fight?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think it's sabotage by other crew. They want SpaceX to send up a Crew Dragon loaded with goodies.

 

[JB47394]

Yes, I understand that, as I discussed in my post #41 upthread.

And I understand that you understand. I was answering a question that you quoted. They apparently don't understand.

The current issues did not seem to occur during the second test flight, which was the first to reach the ISS, which was uncrewed. Or did I miss something about that fight?

They had valve problems on that one as well. They were supposed to launch 3 August 2021, but didn't launch until 19 May 2022.

The valve problem was a result of humid air reacting with the thruster propellant to create nitric acid when then ate away at the aluminum parts, jamming the valves. They swapped out the entire service module, and came up with new procedures to make sure that the humidity couldn't get into the valves.

 

[Electroman]

And I understand that you understand. I was answering a question that you quoted. They apparently don't understand.

I thought I understood. But now I don’t understand

 

[ecarfan]

By “they” he means Boeing and NASA.

 

[RubberToe]

Starliner bird was launched June 6. It can remain docked to the Space Station for up to 45 days, so 7/21/24. Plenty of time to get the SpaceX crew rescue planned and nearly enough time to re-certify the scuttling software on the Starliner.

Scuttle Countdown stands at T - 29 days and counting...

RT