chademo/ccs charging issues

[TslaRcr]

I am having an issue with both chademo and ccs (Lectron) adapters with Models S and X. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Taking Chargepoint network for example - both adapters will work on one station, but not on another identical looking one a hundred miles away. Or one adapter will work on X but not S or vice versa.

What is causing that, the car, the adapter, or the station ? Impossible to get any answers from Chargepoint. Tesla can never figure out what's wrong. Adapters are updated to the latest firmware. It's like, what do I do ? Are Tesla cars too sensitive nowadays and have special power requirements that are not being met ? I've used chademo adapter on my 2013 Model S many times and never had an issue. New Model S and X both have intermittent problems. Any advice ?

 

[SteelClouds]

The best I have heard that makes sense is this. Both adapters sense the voltage, current draw and heat generated at the connections. If any of those are out of spec for "normal", the connection fails. The common thread I've read from the SETEC engineers is that some of the CCS chargers are out of spec with their voltage. To the point that it's not just their adapter, Ive seen brand new MachEs and other CCS cars not being able to charge. Unlike a gallon of gas.. where the car really doesnt care if it's .5 gallons or 1.5 gallons or if it's premium or low octane, EVs care a lot about being in spec. Bad things happen when they are out of spec. The CCS spec seems to be rather loosely implemented at times.

 

[TslaRcr]

Thanks @SteelClouds - but is it really the adapter or the station ? If the same adapter works fine at one Chargepoint location but not the other, it's got to be their station, right ? And in practical terms, what do I tell Chargepoint besides 'it does not work' ? I think I'd be able to get a lot further with the if I said, here's the Tesla spec requirements for voltage/current/heat (as you mentioned above) - can you see why that particular station is not meeting them and fix it. But where I can find these Tesla specs, are they published anywhere public ? Electricians building superchargers must have them, I imagine.

 

[SteelClouds]

Depends.. I know that sounds like a copout.. but here is how I see it.. You have a widget that is expecting the voltage to be between X and Y volts. But, if the widget has it's own bias high for example, a station that might be on the high side would look to be over the limit when it's not. Or it could be the station is in fact too low or high. Without looking at the log files each time, there isnt a good way to know. The SETEC engineers use a Windows and app and a helpful person to capture the data so they can see exactly what is happening when it "fails" and more often than not from they say, it's the charger out of spec. There does seem to be a collation between brand and how reliable it is. A lot of folks have reported success/fails along with which brand of charger it is.. not who is selling the juice but who actually made the charger. ANd some seem to be much more reliable.

 

[cwerdna]

I am having an issue with both chademo and ccs (Lectron) adapters with Models S and X. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Taking Chargepoint network for example - both adapters will work on one station, but not on another identical looking one a hundred miles away. Or one adapter will work on X but not S or vice versa.

What is causing that, the car, the adapter, or the station ? Impossible to get any answers from Chargepoint. Tesla can never figure out what's wrong. Adapters are updated to the latest firmware. It's like, what do I do ? Are Tesla cars too sensitive nowadays and have special power requirements that are not being met ? I've used chademo adapter on my 2013 Model S many times and never had an issue. New Model S and X both have intermittent problems. Any advice ?

ALWAYS check Plugshare first before using any non-Tesla public charging. The station or site could be known down or problematic. Willing to share the location of the ones that gave you problems so that we can check Plugshare? Just because it looks identical doesn't mean it's not broken.

Why limit yourself to ChargePoint? There are many other networks.

Othe ChargePoint app, on some stations, you can see when the last successful charges were. I know that when the 2 DC FCs near home were done for 3 months, none of the failed attempts (including mine) would show up under Last used. When after 3 months of downtime, I started seeing last used entries show up, I went to try them. Sure enough, they were working.

Sometimes people add comments on CP's app about the station working or being down.

As for Lectron CCS adapter, well that and the Setec one have too many sources of user error and compatibility problems.

See my comment about conflating hacky 3rd-party CCS adapter problems w/that of CCS problems at Tesla CHAdeMO adapter. I've used CCS a ton on CCS native cars, mainly my former '19 Bolt that I had for 3 years until I got it bought back by GM. Also, in Dec 2021, I did a road trip on my 80% capped by software former '19 Bolt from Nor Cal to So Cal via highway 99. I had to DC FC 5 times in each direction and made it fine.

I had to drive a '22 Niro EV I leased from Carlsbad 450 miles to get home. I DC FCed it 3x on CCS w/o issue.

I would consider yourself semi-lucky if you can get a 3rd-party CCS adapter to work. Keep in mind there are 4 Tesla vehicle models that have changed quite a bit since they came out and all 4 of them regularly get software updates but not all of them of a given model get updates at the same time.

Don't use credit card readers. They usually suck. Use the network's RFID cards if available (Electrify America doesn't have any) or their app.

I suspect if you didn't use CC readers, stuck w/the CHAdeMO adapter at DC FC sites with high Plugshare scores and recent successful charge check-ins, you'll find the CHAdeMO adapter more reliable. At least it's not a hack by a 3rd party.

 

[TslaRcr]

@SteelClouds Thanks for the tips. I only use it out of necessity. When you are in the middle of nowhere, you have very few options. I do use Plugshare, and the charger was not reported broken, and my Model X worked off the same plug just fine, while Model S did not. Locally, just to test it out, I had the opposite, where X did not work, but S did. It is not a user error - I made sure of that. I used my RFID card.
The thread above was informative, thank you. But still I feel I could have a meaningful conversation with Chargepoint etc. if I presented them with a specific problem based on specs vs. general 'it did not work'.

 

[cwerdna]

@SteelClouds Thanks for the tips. I only use it out of necessity. When you are in the middle of nowhere, you have very few options. I do use Plugshare, and the charger was not reported broken, and my Model X worked off the same plug just fine, while Model S did not. Locally, just to test it out, I had the opposite, where X did not work, but S did. It is not a user error - I made sure of that. I used my RFID card.
The thread above was informative, thank you. But still I feel I could have a meaningful conversation with Chargepoint etc. if I presented them with a specific problem based on specs vs. general 'it did not work'.

Almost all ChargePoint stations aren't owned by ChargePoint. The station owner is responsible for any repairs.

Again, there are other networks. I wouldn't hold your breath for ChargePoint resolving any issues involving hacky unsupported CCS adapters (e.g. Lectron, Setec, etc.) You will likely have better luck w/manufacturer provided and supported adapters (e.g. SAE J1772 Charging Adapter and CHAdeMO Adapter).

If the station is down, CP may request the site owner to repair it but it's up to the owner to either use their warranty (if any) or pony up $ to fix it. If it's a compatibility problem, well, I wouldn't expect CP to want to expend any resources on hacky non-supported 3rd-party adapters.

You're talking about hacky adapters which have not had the benefit of cooperation w/the automaker esp. on hardware and software differences and dozens of different DC FC models out there and for sure a lack of proper testing and continual testing (there are firmware updates for the Setec adapter, Tesla's software on the car side keeps changing, Tesla's hardware changes, software on the charger changes, etc.) like EA's test lab:

Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions

We sit down with Electrify America's CEO Giovanni Palazzo and COO Brendan Jones to discuss the network's problems, and how they plan to correct them.

insideevs.com

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/171

ChargePoint itself has at least 4 different models of DC FCs, see https://www.chargepoint.com/products/guides. The CPE100 isn't even made by them, it's from IES. The CPE200 is from Tritium. Electrify America has 4 different vendors. You can see them on their labels and they look physically different. From the above article on EA:
"I wasn't there to interview him, just look at their lab and ask a few questions. We mostly talked about the challenges of having four different versions of their DC fast chargers. Electrify America currently uses units made by ABB, BTC, Signet, and Efacec. Every time they have a software or hardware update, it has to be done on all four brands, and they don't always all work the same afterward. Fitezek has to work out the kinks with all four partners and they all respond on different timelines. I could see that this was clearly a pain point for him."

I've personally EA's ABB, BTC Power and Signet many times w/my former '19 Bolt w/BTC Power and Signet being used the most and ABB the least.

On the '22 Niro EV that I'm leasing, I personally charged at the below on my 450 mile drive home:
1) Walmart Supercenter | PlugShare - EA ABB
2) Industrial St Parking Lot | PlugShare - ChargePoint CPE250 that was free back then
3) Madera Maintenance Station | PlugShare - free, BTC "Fatboy" (as IIRC, EVgo calls theirs)

They all worked fine and weren't backup/fallback sites for me.

I'd used #1 on my former '19 Bolt. I used #3 at least twice on my former '19 Bolt on the Dec 2021 road trip.

And, people have spotted test vehicles using public DC FCs before the vehicles are available for sale, including me. I've personally seen and spoken to drivers of pre-production Lucid Airs at DC FCs.

Lucid Motors Air

GCR: Lucid Air electric sedan charging EV time: 300 miles in 20 minutes https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129299_lucid-air-electric-sedan-claimed-to-be-fastest-charging-ev-300-miles-in-20-minutes The Air’s AC onboard charger can handle up to 19.2 kw—suggesting 80A drawn, and a dedicated...

mynissanleaf.com

Electrify America Network

The change where EA's chargers show both what's being delivered by the charger and requested by the vehicle (both in kW) seems not universal. I've seen it on their Signet chargers and added to their BTC Power chargers. For sure at the BTC Power site where that was not visible before, it was...

mynissanleaf.com

I've seen Plugshare checkins for awhile w/pictures from a Ford Lightning truck all around California, WELL before the it was for sale. I wouldn't be surprised if they were intentionally or unintentionally looking for charging compatibility problems:

Chevron | Manhattan Beach, CA | EV Station

Chevron station has two sets of EVgo 50kW fast chargers.

www.plugshare.com

Vacaville Premium Outlets | Vacaville, CA | EV Station

Find EV charging stations with PlugShare, the most complete map of electric vehicle charging stations in the world!Charging tips reviews and photos from the EV community.

www.plugshare.com

Whole Foods Market | Oakland, CA | EV Station

A charger at this location is accepting reservations! Make a reservation today via the EVgo app or visit reservations.evgo.com to learn more. EVgo Fast Chargers are located at the roof parking lot - enter from Vernon St.

www.plugshare.com

Santa Rosa Plaza (3) | Santa Rosa, CA | EV Station

Chargers are located on the third floor of parking structure 2

www.plugshare.com

Willing to share the locations of the problem (for you) stations so that I/we can check Plugshare and the CP app?

Have you updated the firmware on the Lectron CCS adapter to a revision that seems to work best, if there is one?

 

[SteelClouds]

I actually canceled my CCS SETEC order and bought a used Tesla Chad adapter even though there are far fewer choices for Chad. Why? Because I want something in my back pocket while Tesla sorts out their crap regarding CCS upgrades/updates etc for the officially supported adapter. Why number 2.. My nearest supercharger is about 8 miles away each direction.. peak costs are about .39 Kwh.. I have brand new and mostly unused CCS and Chad stations about 1.5 miles away with 50 Kw charging.. 8 bays worth of underused stations. Cost is about .43 Kwh. And no line at all any time I've been by there. So I save 20 mins in time on the back and forth plus I save 10 miles or so in range by using the Chad station.. and its about 3 cents more in price. There is also an In and Out burger next to them

I did write to the company asking why in the hell did they put in 8 bays of CCS and Chad ( 1+1) and zero Tesla.

 

[Earl]

Almost all ChargePoint stations aren't owned by ChargePoint. The station owner is responsible for any repairs.

Again, there are other networks. I wouldn't hold your breath for ChargePoint resolving any issues involving hacky unsupported CCS adapters (e.g. Lectron, Setec, etc.) You will likely have better luck w/manufacturer provided and supported adapters (e.g. SAE J1772 Charging Adapter and CHAdeMO Adapter).

If the station is down, CP may request the site owner to repair it but it's up to the owner to either use their warranty (if any) or pony up $ to fix it.

I've called in to complain to CP about broken chargers several times. They used to just say "contact the site owner". Now, they remind me that the site owner is responsible but that they'll put in a ticket. Their big improvement is that 3 times now, they've actually called me back up to tell me that the site is back up. Then I got a "how are we doing" survey. Did I mention that it was 6 months later that they called me back?
I love and hate CP. Many times, they are the only option - for that I'm grateful. Their quality is so poor though that the thought of having to use them is very stressful.

 

[SteelClouds]

EVgo has gotten better too with the customer service. I've had to report in a few times and they have been very responsive of late.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Don't use credit card readers. They usually suck. Use the network's RFID cards if available (Electrify America doesn't have any) or their app.

Electrify America doesn't have RFID but you can use a smartphone with NFC.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

EVgo has gotten better too with the customer service. I've had to report in a few times and they have been very responsive of late.

Here, not only have they proven unreliable, but they're generally 50kW 1 CCS + 1 CHAdeMO. The main ChargePoint locations are generally 62.5kW 2 x (CCS/CHAdeMO).

 

[SteelClouds]

Electrify America doesn't have RFID but you can use a smartphone with NFC.

That assumes you have a newer phone with NFC.. I finally got my wife to upgrade her phone just for this reason. And she's not alone. The other bitch I have with some of the chargers like the one at my office is that it's in the deepest basement of the parking structure.. Guess what? No wifi.. no cellular. The very first time I went to use it, I was lucky that I had gotten an RFID card from ChargePoint because the app and phone was useless. The phone NFC wasn't working for some reason and no cellular. I dont know if they are related. The only thing that worked was the card.

 

[cwerdna]

I don't use NFC with EA. I just use their app to start sessions when I'm paying for juice. On some EA chargers, the NFC reader is part of the (crappy) credit card readers. I've been at some which say network error right on the CC reader.

Most of my EA charging has been when it's free (will say complimentary session on the display), where there's no app, CC, NFC or anything needed. Just plug in and CCS eventually starts.

 

[kilpatds]

Electrify America doesn't have RFID but you can use a smartphone with NFC.

When I do that, my phone goes "Oh, a credit card reader", and I get to pay the non-member price like anyone else presenting a credit card. So. ... yay?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

When I do that, my phone goes "Oh, a credit card reader", and I get to pay the non-member price like anyone else presenting a credit card. So. ... yay?

Note: I don't have an iPhone or an Android with NFC.

Android? I think there's more of an issue on Android.

I believe that on the iPhone you can add the app to the Wallet, and it acts like a linked RFID card.

But, some of their chargers have 2 NFC readers, one on the credit card reader and one on the charger. So you have to make sure not to keep your phone away from the credit card reader as it would just pay by credit card.

From my reading, on Android there seem to be more issues, notably when there's a single RFID reader.

 

[SteelClouds]

I just struggled with EA and gave up tonight.. three stations refused to charge my i3.. I went down the street to EVgo and it worked perfectly.

 

[cwerdna]

I just struggled with EA and gave up tonight.. three stations refused to charge my i3.. I went down the street to EVgo and it worked perfectly.

What did Plugshare say? Willing to share the location? Some locations are notoriously bad. Villa del Mare at Seascape Resort | PlugShare is one I'd see constant complaints about but actually has a decent score now. Napa Premium Outlets (1) | PlugShare has a low score. I've charged there fine once before but one DC FC was totally powered off back then.

Both of the above sites look like ABB.

Did you EA makes a video on how to prop-up the cable? Did you use EA's app and NOT NFC?

 

[SteelClouds]

Did you EA makes a video on how to prop-up the cable? Did you use EA's app and NOT NFC?

THis was the 2nd set of chargers.. the first is a local company and while they worked in the early afternoon, when I went back at 5, none would take any payment method.. so then I went to the EA chargers.. first one wouldnt talk to me at all.. had some kind of network error.. the 2nd station would not talk to the car.. it would start to initialize the connection then time out.. The third station did the same. Those two I used the NFC and that part worked fine..

The next was EVgo and the charger worked just like it should. .In fact, there were two of us i3s there Funniest damn thing to see because there are just a few of us around here. I use this station at times because it has the Chad connection and I use that on the Tesla with the adapter.

Its not the best location but it was the closest today.. so it was annoying to be there.

Yorba Canyon Center​

21480 Yorba Linda Blvd., Yorba Linda, CA 92887

 

[cwerdna]

Above has a great Plugshare score: Yorba Canyon Center | PlugShare. Those look like BTC Power units.

As for "none would take any payment method", that sounds like your problem there. Do they have an app or RFID card? Did you try those?

Electrify America Talks Charging Network Problems, Has Solutions implores users to use their app. Interview: Electrify America expects you to raise hell if chargers don’t work also says
"One of the biggest problems is faulty credit-card readers. Not only do many of Electrify America’s stations have connectivity problems, but even when a connection is made, a charging session can be dropped halfway through. That’s because the financial session is open until a final payment amount is determined. The connection gets lost in the middle, causing the driver to start all over again. Using the Electrify America app solves the problem."

For station wouldn't talk to car, did you lift and support the CCS handle until it locked to the car? EA makes a video on how to prop-up the cable mentions the i3.

Were the tangs broken on the handles? We've had that problem at the EA and EVGo CCS DC FCs in my area, multiple times. I've personally seen them broken that way. I would really want to avoid trying to DC FC using a handle w/a broken locking tang as a disconnect could be dangerous (huge arc and possible damage to handle and inlet).

Of course, CHAdeMO doesn't need the lift handle nonsense and can't have the broken locking tang issues but the handles themselves can be broken in other ways.

Sometimes calling support and having them reboot the station can help. It's helped me more than once at EVgo DC FCs. EVgo phone support has also in the past told me, "yeah, nobody has succeeded in charging on that station today" if I encounter a problem.