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Converted Audi A2 goes 605 km (378mi) without charging

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#141
If a cell has high cycle life then pack replacement cost, which is a big question mark for everyone, is eliminated. Plus secondary use value is higher when capacity does begin to reduce below practical levels for transportation. This helps reduce disposal/recycling issues.
 
#142
Yeah, but Americans (in a general sort of way) don't think that way - so there's strong incentive to hit the minimum longevity requirements and keep up-front costs down. Unless the window sticker has estimated total-cost numbers for 5 and 10 years out including battery resale value, the cheaper, lower-cycle count batteries will win out.
 
#143
SByer said:
Yeah, but Americans (in a general sort of way) don't think that way - so there's strong incentive to hit the minimum longevity requirements and keep up-front costs down. Unless the window sticker has estimated total-cost numbers for 5 and 10 years out including battery resale value, the cheaper, lower-cycle count batteries will win out.
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I actually like it this way for batteries now - mainly because of anticipated reduction in battery price in the future.

Why pay, say, 100% more to get 5 more years, if after 5 years the battery price will be half of what it is today. In anycase, leasing makes a lot of sense with EVs at this stage. It is unfortunate that tax credit rules (and others) don't allow buying the car and leasing the battery in the US.

The report is that Perry of Nissan was surprised anyone would not lease a Leaf (this was before cars were delivered). Ofcourse because of EV1 experience (and other "ownership" society odeas) most people have bought Leaf, rather than lease it.
 
#144
EVNow said:
...The report is that Perry of Nissan was surprised anyone would not lease a Leaf (this was before cars were delivered). Ofcourse because of EV1 experience (and other "ownership" society odeas) most people have bought Leaf, rather than lease it.
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Might be interesting to watch in a few years after the EV lovers have had their fill.
 
#145
People are very concerned with pack life, if packs start failing in 5 years that will be a black mark on the industry and could cause it's death, unless replacement costs plummet, which I don't see happening in five years. As for leasing, it always costs more than buying, that's why it's offered, it generates profits. In this case it might make sense, but only because you are basically saying you don't trust the product you are buying.
 
#146
JRP3 said:
People are very concerned with pack life, if packs start failing in 5 years that will be a black mark on the industry and could cause it's death, unless replacement costs plummet, which I don't see happening in five years.
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Well, people are also concerned about the price. So, you have to strike a balance. Afterall how many people buy extended warranties. BTW, you should checkout Nissan exec's explanation - he says even when the battery capacity goes down (or it fails) you would have to replace only a few cells. Not the entire pack.

As for leasing, it always costs more than buying, that's why it's offered, it generates profits. In this case it might make sense, but only because you are basically saying you don't trust the product you are buying.
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Leasing is just another way of financing. Depending on various factors, it can cost more or less. Leasing has been one way to sell cars for manufacturers - and thus all the subsidized leases we get. In this case, it makes immense sense to lease as an insurance against inherent unknowns of any new technology. It also gives a financially better option to turn over the old EV for an improved new one in 3 years. I wish I had the lease option when I was buying HDTVs when they first came out ...
 
#147
EVNow said:
Well, people are also concerned about the price. So, you have to strike a balance. Afterall how many people buy extended warranties. BTW, you should checkout Nissan exec's explanation - he says even when the battery capacity goes down (or it fails) you would have to replace only a few cells. Not the entire pack.
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Unfortunately he seems to have no real concept of how batteries degrade over time. As the pack ages and loses capacity it will do so as a whole. If you are down to 80% capacity or less it's likely the entire pack is at similar levels, so replacing a single cell or more isn't going to gain you much back. If you have a few cells that have dropped more capacity than the rest or failed completely then yes, but that should be a very rare occurrence if the cells were of good quality to begin with. Even if the vehicle cost is say $5K less that's not going to help if packs start dying after 5 years.
As for extended warranties, they are always a rip off, that's why companies offer them. I've never bought an extended warranty in my life and have saved thousands by avoiding them. You should never buy extended warranties, unless you know you are going to abuse a product.

Leasing is just another way of financing. Depending on various factors, it can cost more or less. Leasing has been one way to sell cars for manufacturers - and thus all the subsidized leases we get. In this case, it makes immense sense to lease as an insurance against inherent unknowns of any new technology. It also gives a financially better option to turn over the old EV for an improved new one in 3 years. I wish I had the lease option when I was buying HDTVs when they first came out ...
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That points out another aspect relating to extended warranties as well, if you don't trust the product you probably shouldn't buy it. I didn't trust HDTV's when they were new, with good cause, and saved thousands by not buying them. However I do appreciate those who feel they must have the latest and greatest regardless of cost so they can improve the technology and drive the price down for the more patient among us :biggrin:
 
#150
In actuality I do trust the current EV technology and I think it likely to perform better than expected over time. Certainly for my personal use which includes mostly short trips, limited daily mileage, and the ability to charge at work if needed, pack life should not be an issue, especially using LiFePO4. I expect I'll want to upgrade to something new before my pack actually wears out.
 
#152
pressw0rds reports that the 10 week real-world driving test by Next Energy, with 3 converted Audis, using DBM Energy batteries, were successful.

They drove 12,000 km without any problems. They had a reliable range of 200 km (125 miles), sometimes achieving 230 km (144 miles). (The batteries in these test cars were smaller than those in previous tests/demos). Test drivers were enthusiastic about the electric cars.

EDIT: Press release by Next Energy (in german): http://www.next-energy.de/tl_files/assets/pressemitteilungen/111102_PM_Fahrtests_A2.pdf
 
#153
I did read the german article. The batteries used where 40KW, the range is 200 km. It would be interesting to know what was the weight and volume of the whole battery, they don't mention that.
 
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#154
Indeed, those are really important specifications, probably the most important, assuming reasonable cycle life, and affordable cost. Frankly 125 miles from 40 kWh is pretty crappy for a vehicle like the A2 unless the vehicles were driven hard, but that doesn't tell us anything about the batteries.
 
#158
DBM Energy - Mirko Hannemann to receive top award November 28 2011. See EVUK (exclusive English-language) News report at
http://www.evuk.co.uk/news/inde8.html
He & DBM are in exalted ethical company: 2009 winner of this GPM award: the German Indonesian Tsunami Early Warning System GITEWS
Prize will be presented by German Economy Minister Hans-Joachim Otto(does anyone still believe this is all a hoax !?)
And just as importantly the presentation(you can all still apply to attend..) will be followed by an open forum "Fish Bowl" discussion..
ie. Hannemann = the Big Fish. (but that's all that's fishy about DBM on the BAM/Dekra EV-idence so far presented)
I have contacted organisers to request that the event be video'd - posted up on the GPM/DBM sites.
All relevant links are easily findable in above-mentioned EVUK article. Please add your voices to the "please video" request ! Note: Elon recently infamously laughed at the BYD e6 on Bloomberg TV - would he laugh at DBM's 5000 full charge cycles ?
 
#160
Last time I checked, the German federal minister of economy was Rainer Brüderle (=Rainer little Brother). There is a Hans-Joachim Otto in the federal dept of economy and technology, in the position of a "Parlamentarischer Staatssekretär" - right hand of the minister.
A special case is the Parlamentarische Staatssekretär (parliamentary secretary of state), which is a member of parliament who is appointed to a ministry as a Staatssekretär, in the German Foreign Office and the German Chancellery the official title is Staatsminister (Minister of State).
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- Wikipedia
 
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