Converted Audi A2 goes 605 km (378mi) without charging

[EVNow]

Prize will be presented by German Economy Minister Hans-Joachim Otto(does anyone still believe this is all a hoax !?)

Governement officials are the easiest to fool - esp. if the "invention" can be shown to be "patriotic". Witness Obama's touring of Solyandra that went bankrupt recently because it never had a good business model.

Specifically, we don't even know what the claims are. We need to know
- Energy Density
- Price / kWh
- Charge / Discharge rates
- Capacity retention curve

Only then, we can even figure out if Kolibri is anything special.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Governement officials are the easiest to fool - esp. if the "invention" can be shown to be "patriotic". Witness Obama's touring of Solyandra that went bankrupt recently because it never had a good business model.

Specifically, we don't even know what the claims are. We need to know
- Energy Density
- Price / kWh
- Charge / Discharge rates
- Capacity retention curve

Only then, we can even figure out if Kolibri is anything special.

Agreed. They did do an independent test by the German Federal Institute for Materials Research and Testing (BAM), but it seems like it is similar to standard UN lithium battery test that allows them to be shipped in airplanes (same one Tesla did very early on for the Roadster). I don't believe there was any useful data besides from knowing the pack capacity on the car (62.928 kWh), the car weight being under 1500kg (3306 lbs), and that the car can go 454.83 km (282.62 miles) on the ECE-R 101 cycle.

DBM Energys record-breaking KOLIBRI battery passes government tests [w/VIDEO]

I don't even expect independent tests; even their own internal tests and showing the results in a traditional battery datasheet would be enough to convince me it might be something special.

 

[EVUK]

EVUK - DBM Energy Award etc - corrected link !

Full EVUK article at:
Electric Vehicles UK
(re Roland Gutsch Award to Hannemann 28 Nov, Berlin...Musk laughed at BYD(watch the cropped clip) - but would he have laughed at DBM's 5000 charge cycles etc),

 

[JRP3]

How about some proof of your "independently verified" 5000 cycle claims?

 

[stopcrazypp]

How about some proof of your "independently verified" 5000 cycle claims?

I don't even require independently verified results, just a concrete datasheet with their name on it, rather than some vague/general press statements (that can't be traced back to actual testing data and thus the claims vary depending at what source you look at).

What I expect from DBM is at the very least a basic spec sheet showing cell voltage/capacity/dimensions/weight; examples from GS Yuasa (Mitsubishi iMIEV) and AESC (Nissan Leaf):
http://www.gsyuasa-lp.com/Products/GSYuasa-LEV50.pdf
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/products/Products-e.htm

This is what basically every serious battery manufacturer will have on their websites.

More detailed data sheets will show charts for temperature, charge/discharge performance, and cycle testing; examples from GS Yuasa, AESC, and Panasonic (last page, NCR18650A cells used in the 300 mile Model S):
http://www.gsyuasa-lp.com/Products/GSYuasa-LVP10.pdf
http://www.eco-aesc-lb.com/en/products/Products-e.files/Specifications-e.htm#cell_performance_BEV
http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/ACI4000/ACI4000CE2.pdf

So far DBM have passed the standard UN battery testing that all lithium batteries must undergo to be shipped internationally. But they haven't released a basic cell data sheet, much less a detailed one. They have sold some cells to forklift applications, but so far their website has no substance in terms of cell data, so no basis at all to even judge what they have supposedly accomplished:
http://www.dbm-energy.com/

 

[Norbert]

This article is back from April 9th, 2011, but contains an interesting bit of info which I think wasn't highlighted yet:

Aufatmen bei DBM Energy: Gute Batterie: «Meilenstein» für das lekker-mobil | autogazette.de das Auto Magazin

It references the Hanover fair early 2011:

DBM-Energy ist am Stand des Bundeswirtschaftsministeriums (BMI) mit dem neuen Testauto vertreten. Indes nur Tesla-Motors, die kalifornische Elektroroadster-Schmiede suchte noch am Eröffnungstag einen direkten Draht zu den Akku-Experten. Daimler etwa war nicht zu einer Stellungnahme zu überreden.

Quick translation:

---
DBM Energy is represented at the booth of the Bundeswirtschaftsministeriums (BMI) (not sure if "department of economy" is a good translation) with a new test vehicle. Only Tesla Motors, the californian manufacturer of the electric Roadster, was seeking a direct connection to the battery expert [DBM]. Daimler could not be persuaded to comment.
---

Would be interesting to know what came out of this.

 

[JRP3]

I would hope that Tesla at least tried to get some cells or a battery to test for themselves. No reason not to, and no reason for DMB not to provide one if they are confident in their technology.

 

[Norbert]

I would hope that Tesla at least tried to get some cells or a battery to test for themselves. No reason not to, and no reason for DMB not to provide one if they are confident in their technology.

The latest news sound like DBM is in fact confident, though there doesn't seem to be new information except for the real-world test results already posted here.

 

[dpeilow]

Is this the form factor? Or one of many?

 

[JRP3]

I see two form factors in that picture, to which are you referring?

 

[Norbert]

They probably don't have a specific form factor (yet).

 

[JRP3]

Somewhat troubling analysis if correct: http://theeestory.com/topics/9843?page=1#p229205

 

[Norbert]

Somewhat troubling analysis if correct: http://theeestory.com/topics/9843?page=1#p229205

A while ago there were reports that for the near future they would start with grid applications (and continue the forklift product). To me it seemed that they can be competitive in those areas (due to their high power capabilities) even with small volume production, whereas in the automotive sector they probably would need mass-manufacturing which they don't have yet. Maybe the problem is to finance a factory without giving the rights away to someone else, or that they would need to further develop their tech to make cost-effective with high-volumes.

 

[dpeilow]

Somewhat troubling analysis if correct: http://theeestory.com/topics/9843?page=1#p229205

Hmm 5 million forklift trucks or 2 billion cars...?

 

[Eberhard]

Hmm 5 million forklift trucks or 2 billion cars...?

the market for grid application is much bigger then for cars. The number of cycles is critical for grid applications while a lifetime of 10 mio km for a car is useless (30.000 cycles) but for grid balancing and compensation of day/night load is battery are best to use.

 

[EVNow]

Somewhat troubling analysis if correct: http://theeestory.com/topics/9843?page=1#p229205

It is possible that they want to partner only with the German auto makers - and those auto makers are asking DBM to give up too much.

Anyway, there are a number of companies now developing Vanadium based batteries. Either DBM acts now or loses out.

 

[JRP3]

I remember Mirko saying something to the effect of strong interest in the US, or a future with US companies. Of course that may have changed.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think the only estimated specs put the density at 250-300Wh/kg (there's still no officials cell specs). That's pretty good, but around the same as the upcoming Panasonic cells (245Wh/kg for 3100mah, 252Wh/kg for 4000mah, 265Wh/kg for 3400mah), so it's not a huge loss for the EV community.

Given they make forklift batteries, presumably with the same chemistry, it should only be a matter of time before someone posts the actual cell specs on the internet. I'm still somewhat skeptical, but I do realize if the estimated specs were true, there would be legitimate patent concerns before approaching an automaker (which could reverse engineer a cell and patent it before DBM can).

 

[dpeilow]

Didn't they cram 80 odd kWh into the floor of the A2? In which case they may have a volumetric advantage.

With very high cycle life they would have an advantage for stop-start, PHEVs or even diesel-electric hybrid trains.

 

[EVNow]

I think the only estimated specs put the density at 250-300Wh/kg (there's still no officials cell specs). That's pretty good, but around the same as the upcoming Panasonic cells (245Wh/kg for 3100mah, 252Wh/kg for 4000mah, 265Wh/kg for 3400mah), so it's not a huge loss for the EV community.

We are lookoing at multiple things
- price / kWh
- Energy & specific density
- Power density
- Recharge rate
- Number of cycles

From tesla's unwillingness to have QC for the 40 kWh S, it is clear the recharge rates aren't good with the chemistry Tesla is using. DBM claims good fast charge capbility.