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Converted Audi A2 goes 605 km (378mi) without charging
- Thread starter Adm
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- Electric Vehicles
Hi folks,
found the link and here I am ;-)
Scrolled over the history of this thread and you folks have done some digging yourself - good work. As far as my time allows it I can try to shed some light on dbm and their battery. But still have some questions myself, so can't answer everything...
Just out of curiosity, who of you guys speaks German? At least Norbert (German name) seems to...?
found the link and here I am ;-)
Scrolled over the history of this thread and you folks have done some digging yourself - good work. As far as my time allows it I can try to shed some light on dbm and their battery. But still have some questions myself, so can't answer everything...
Just out of curiosity, who of you guys speaks German? At least Norbert (German name) seems to...?
I think among all the information I was reading in the blog itself and in the references made there, was a indirect quote from MH that the car which burnt down wasn't even the record-making car itself (aside from the same battery not being in it). So the poster appeared to know less than what might be his/her own blog...
The record breaking car (called lekker mobile) was burned down in the fire. However the kolibri battery was not inside to that time. There is an official police report stating that it was arson since the fire emanated from at least 3 sources... Where does my blog state otherwise? Maybe you mix up the incident at papstar (only smoke) and the burn down of the warehouse...?
EV_de
Model SP10/XP9 EU ZOE#47
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
EVNow
Well-Known Member
There seem to be basically two claims of DBM
- High energy density : The maximum number you note (280 w/kg), seems quite achievable and not incredulous.
- Price per kwh : I've seen extremely low prices. Have you heard anything on this ?
Ofcourse the big question is - if they do have something very useful, why isn't any auto company working with them ?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Sounds as if they are in negotiations. My guess is Mirko is trying to walk a fine line between getting himself a good contract while not locking up the technology so it could be stifled.
Energy density:
Actually there are three numbers out there: 280, 170 and 140. For the 140wh/kg i have old fact sheets from DBM confirming that...In general I agree with one comment written to an article i wrote: There are many different numbers floating around for different batteries (Li-Ion, LMP, LP) There are often densities over 150 Wh/kg but people do not differentiate between cell and battery energy density. But the reality is different:
Current batteries in EVs are between 80Wh/kg-120Wh/kg. The roadstar has what? about 120Wh/kg? The i-MiEV (Mitsubishi) or the Leaf (Nissan) have a ~80Wh/kg Battery. The Smart (Daimler) has 120 Wh/kg. BMW which will be ready in two years will have 100Wh/kg. A Tesla development the Tesla S will have 140Wh/kg-190Wh/kg.
But with all those numbers you have to remember, that the manufacturers are not only thinking of the cost but also of the life expectancy. There is a high effort adjusting the temperature etc. Then those (cell) values which are in theory at 140Wh/kg or 250Wh/kg quickly go down.
Of course there are other cells out there which achieve high numbers but i want to see that in a car. In my opinion DBM has something highly competetive in terms of energy density and price...
Price:
As copied by JRP3 the exact cost is not yet known. But as Mirko Hannemann (MH) stated once the price is about half of a Li-ion battery and in mass production will reduce the cost by 50% once more...
Auto company cooperation:
Since the succesfull tests of BAM and DEKRA the talks started again. Currently there are talking to Audi and BMW. With Audi they are planning some kind of a race car? But details are quite vague on that. Furthermore i would like to cite MH when asked by the press about their cautious attitute: (freely translated) "At the current size we have as a company today we have a strong necessity for know-how protection. [...] To not plainly give our know-how away we try to create the contracts to our advantage. And that is not always in the interest of the car companies. Additionally car companies have a great demand for independence to their suppliers. There are voices saying: "It can't only be Hannemann"[...]
EVNow
Well-Known Member
That is about $368/Kwh. Quite good. $500 is probably a good Li-ion price.
I've no idea what that means. Is that about operating cost (i.e. electricity cost to run 100 kms ?). Looks too high.
To run 62 miles, you need about 15 kwh. What does $10/15 kwh mean ?
The problem with this satement is that the Li-ion battery price varies so much - from $1,000 to $500 / kwh. Nissan themselfs have stated so many price points (depending on who is talking and how it is translated).
EVNow
Well-Known Member
The way the company is approaching this makes me sceptical. My guess is
- DBM doesn't have a commercial manufacturing plant. They seem to be making whatever they make in some kind of a lab.
- They don't have much money
In this case, what I'd do if I had some kind of a breakthough battery tech is to talk to multiple battery manufacturers and license the technology. Once the battery manufacturer of some repute get get the ball rolling, talk to multiple auto manufacturers about making vehicles with those batteries. Why would I talk to Audi or BMW if I can't produce batteries in volume (or may be I would talk to them because they aren't going to make vehicles in large numbers !).
True and true.
Recently MH stated that up to ~200 people (paid on a fee-basis) assemble the batteries. (My guess is mostly by hand?) To establish Mass production it would take 9-12 month. Currently they are building some kind of manufacturing plant in the south-western part of germany. A customer of theirs is providing a 20.000 sqm hall. In 2011 they are able to produce about 50 MWh of batteries. (which should be about 73.100 single cells)
They don't have much money. They paid the development of the battery by themselves. Customers have to pay in advance for their batteries... I think that is one of the reasons they are now changing to a public stock company (AG).
What I know is that they have a coorperation with 3M. But in general I think due to their size DBM is (over)cautious to give away their battery know-how. This leads us to the question how did they protect their knowledge (patents etc.)? And this is another open question heavily discussed right now...
Here in germany it is said that 1kwh costs about 1000 €.
It was said by MH and its press speaker when asked about the price of the battery.
I think it is the price for the the charging cost and battery itself. What dbm tries to say is that the battery will be quite competetive when compared to gas/diesel powered cars. A car which needs 8 liter gas / 100 km costs about 13 Euro vs. 7,20 / 100km for an dbm battery powered car.
To charge the battery (for the 64,874 kwh car) costs about 3,56€ /100 km (0,25 cent/kwh) so the remaining 3,64€ are for the battery. But since the parameters of that calculation are not known (e.g. overall km of the battery) it is not possible to calculate the battery price...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
We pay under $400/Kwh for our Chinese LiFePO4 prismatics from CALB and TS, so $368 is not ground breaking, unless that's for an assembled pack. Isn't Tesla around $250/Kwh for cells?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
That is expensive. Is that usable or total capacity ? GM is paying $500/kwh to LG for the battery.
If DBM says their cost is 50% of this - and can reduce by 50% more, we are looking at 500€ now and 250€ once mass produced. That is about $350/kwh, good but not great.
That would still mean for a 200 real-world mile range car (i.e. we are looking at 65 kwh battery) the cost would be $23,000 for just the battery. At 280w/kg, it would be 500 lb for the cells (or about 700 lb for the battery).
That is like what Ghosn has been saying - and what Renault will do. Battery lease + fuel charge about 100€ a month. As you say that doesn't give a good indication of the battery cost.
Ok, atleast they have some concrete plans for producing the batteries. 50MWh would be about 2,000 cars of 100 mile range each. It is also encouraging that they are doing an IPO - that way atleast they have to give a lot more official information than what they have given until now.
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
Can't really compare low density Chinese LiFePO4 with this (if it is really 280w/kg). In other words, if the Chinese get hold of this technology they can sell the batteries for less than $400/Kwh ;-)
But, I agree it is not exactly ground breaking - though it is probably a couple of years ahead of the price curve compared to Panasonic, LG and Nissan.
ps : Look at this article about the problem Chinese are having in make good batteries.
Technology Questions Loom Large for China's Plug-in Vehicle Battery Industry | PluginCars.com
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Norbert
TSLA will win
It was just a short remark (the claim that it might not have been the record making car itself), not a "real" report (if anything on this topic can be considered "real report"). I'd also consider that it wasn't completely serious in the first place. If it was in your blog itself, then it is quite possible that it was in the comment section (from one of the frequent contributors, presenting it as if it were a commonly known bit of information), though I didn't recently find it there when I tried to look it up. It may also have been in one oft the links provided. I currently don't have more time to search for it.
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The most inaccurate comparing of cell prices is not taking into the calculation the cycle life and energy density. For automotive use, cycle life is not as important but energy density is. the current panasonic cell have 180Wh/kg, the most advanced, being used in Models S have even 280Wh/kg compared to max.120Wh/kg of LFP, while the latter can handle 2000-3000 cycles, Teslas ones are only good for 500-700 cycles depending on the treatment. But 700cycles with 400km = 280.000km?
Better to do calculation on cost per kWh taken from the cell.
Better to do calculation on cost per kWh taken from the cell.