Discussion: Powershare [V2X feature currently announced for Cybertruck]

[Olle]

Why not? The Powershare specs say the Powershare Mobile Connector can be used to add outlets in addition to the ones built-in.

My guess is that it is bidirectional and can be used to charge as well as provide power out of the vehicle. (With appropriate adapters.)

As we can see on the PowerShare page, PowerShare refers to many things, e.g charging another vehicle from the Cybertruck's 240V bed outet with a Mobile Connector. The PowerShare Mobile Connector has more outlets on it, from the page: "Add additional 120V or 240V outlets with Powershare Mobile Connector and Outlet Adapters (up to 32A)".

Mobile connector will likely never be bidirectional because the blades would be energized at 240 V and one cold potentially be electrocuted when they are unplugged and exposed. Even thought it would be possible to de-energize with software, it would be a stretch to get it UL listed.

 

[MP3Mike]

This leads us to a question: If there is full amp neutral onboard, why do we need the Gateway? I recognize that the V2H PowerShare is listed as 11.5 kW and the bed outlets are listed as 9.6kW real continuous power, but that doesn't seem like enough of a difference to motivate a Gateway?

The 9.6kW inverter for the onboard outlets likely has neutral support. The 11.5kW bidirectional charger that is used for the V2H feature likely does not have neutral support. (Since there is no way to get a neutral to/from it.)

That was specifically spelled out in Drew's X posts. The NACS, and J1772, connectors do not have a neutral. So, when using the 11.5kW output of the charge port to power your house, the neutral has to be created on the house/Gateway/Powerwall side.

The challenge with vehicle to home backup is that the car can only provide 240V line to line. This is because the charging standards (NACS and CCS both) don’t have the neutral wire in them. But homes in the US / Canada are wired with split-phase 240, which means current must flow on the neutral wire. To provide this current when off grid, you either need a Powerwall, or a new Powershare version of Tesla’s energy Gateway with an auto-transformer in it.

Additionally, for homes without a Powerwall, the Universal Wall Connector provides an interface for logic power from the car to the switch in the gateway to power the disconnect open during an outage.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1731186119914754484

 

[Olle]

The 9.6kW inverter for the onboard outlets likely has neutral support. The 11.5kW bidirectional charger that is used for the V2H feature likely does not have neutral support. (Since there is no way to get a neutral to/from it.)

That was specifically spelled out in Drew's X posts. The NACS, and J1772, connectors do not have a neutral. So, when using the 11.5kW output of the charge port to power your house, the neutral has to be created on the house/Gateway/Powerwall side.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1731186119914754484

Yup I realized that the moment I posted it that NACS is missing neutral, hence the need for the auto transformer in the house which is why I deleted that part of the post, but you were quicker to answer than I could delete it

Why do you think that there is an additional inverter in the truck? I always took for granted that the bidirectional charger provides the power to all the onboard outlets, would there be a reason not to?

 

[MP3Mike]

Why do you think that there is an additional inverter in the truck? I always took for granted that the bidirectional charger provides the power to all the onboard outlets, would there be a reason not to?

Because I assume that you can use the outlets in the truck while you are charging. And you could be charging on 120v while you are using the 240v outlet in the bed. Or you could be charging on a 6-20, like I do, but want to draw more than 16A from the combined outlets in the truck. (So, you can't just pass-through the electricity.)

If the inverter isn't separate for the onboard outlets, then they likely have to disable the outlets in the bed, and the cab, while you are charging on AC.

 

[miimura]

The system in the truck could be designed to use the OBC as the mobile inverter for the truck outlets, including the neutral. If it was plugged in and charging at the time, it could pass through the grid power to the outlets, but it would probably have to curtail charging by the amount of power that is being drawn from the outlets. An auto-transformer could be used to provide the neutral to outlets when connected to pure 240 through NACS or J1772. If that’s the case, then there’s no need to have dual 120V outputs to provide neutral from the OBC, just use the transformer all the time and invert pure 240VAC.

 

[MP3Mike]

The system in the truck could be designed to use the OBC as the mobile inverter for the truck outlets, including the neutral. If it was plugged in and charging at the time, it could pass through the grid power to the outlets, but it would probably have to curtail charging by the amount of power that is being drawn from the outlets.

How would that work if you were charging from a 120v AC outlet, and trying to use the 240v outlet in the bed?

An auto-transformer could be used to provide the neutral to outlets when connected to pure 240 through NACS or J1772. If that’s the case, then there’s no need to have dual 120V outputs to provide neutral from the OBC, just use the transformer all the time and invert pure 240VAC.

Correct, and that auto-transformer is in your Powerwall or Powershare Gateway... It is not in the vehicle, as there aren't enough wires to get the neutral out of the vehicle and hooked to your house.

But the inverter, likely completely separate from the bidirectional charger used for V2H, in the vehicle has to support neutral for the 120v outlets, and the 14-50 outlet in the truck.

 

[pdx_m3s]

How would that work if you were charging from a 120v AC outlet, and trying to use the 240v outlet in the bed?


Correct, and that auto-transformer is in your Powerwall or Powershare Gateway... It is not in the vehicle, as there aren't enough wires to get the neutral out of the vehicle and hooked to your house.

But the inverter, likely completely separate from the bidirectional charger used for V2H, in the vehicle has to support neutral for the 120v outlets, and the 14-50 outlet in the truck.

Are you sure Powershare works while charging? It would be very unlike Tesla to have two parts where one would do.

Powershare not having neutral is a NACS connector limitation, not necessarily an OBC limitation.

My guess is that the inverter and OBC are one component.

 

[MP3Mike]

Are you sure Powershare works while charging?

Not totally, but I think it is highly likely. It does say whenever you need them:

It would be very unlike Tesla to have two parts where one would do.

But one won't do. Do you really think the outlets in the truck, including the ones in the cab, should be disabled while you are charging? What if you are working in the cab and need the 120v outlet while you are charging?

My guess is that the inverter and OBC are one component.

It is possible, but I think unlikely. Hopefully we get more details soon.

 

[MP3Mike]

So the Outlets & Mods page show a controllable power feed in the Frunk and on the Roof:

I wonder if that is 12v, 48v, 120v, and/or 240v.

Is that for things like a winch and light bar? Air compressor?

 

[pdx_m3s]

But one won't do. Do you really think the outlets in the truck, including the ones in the cab, should be disabled while you are charging? What if you are working in the cab and need the 120v outlet while you are charging?

If you are charging the truck, presumably you're in a spot with 120V/240V power available...

 

[MP3Mike]

If you are charging the truck, presumably you're in a spot with 120V/240V power available...

Really? What if the only power is EVSE(s). (Like in a lot of parking lots.) How am I going to plug my laptop in to that? My air compressor?

Again, what if the only available power is 120v, but I need to use a 240v device? (Maybe the 120v is 20A, and my 240v device is only 5A, so even the 120v is enough to power the load, but can't be done directly.)

 

[pdx_m3s]

Really? What if the only power is EVSE(s). (Like in a lot of parking lots.) How am I going to plug my laptop in to that? My air compressor?

Again, what if the only available power is 120v, but I need to use a 240v device? (Maybe the 120v is 20A, and my 240v device is only 5A, so even the 120v is enough to power the load, but can't be done directly.)

Fair points. Time will tell.

 

[Jones1]

The Great Debate! I’m here for it. Good info.

 

[Marktm250]

As I have an OpenEVSE charge controller ( EVSE - Tesla calls it their wall connector), my adaptor is J1772 to NACS - to charge my new model Y. If the reverse adapter (NACS to J1772) works with the "Tesla Wall Connector", then it appears the difference in the "Universal TWC" is mainly the included adapter. Having said that, to enable "powershare" with the new cybertruck may require some additional protocols that are included in the "Universal TWC". Just guessing at this point.

One thing does seem evident - that the "Universal TWC" will use only the AC/control ports - so any "bidirectionality" will be either from a separate inverter or a bidirectional charger in the cybertruck. Out on a limb here as there seems to be so little actual information about how the V2 whatever will work in the cybertruck. Anyone have an overall schema, including the powerwalls, along with Tesla's gateway and/or the new "Tesla Backup Switch". Note that the backup switch concept is really great HOWEVER hardly any utilities will allow it in Texas.

As an advocate of home based microgrids, Tesla's approach with the cybertruck might be quite a breakthrough IF it will seamlessly include solar and the capability to arbitrage energy while on grid. Again, if anyone has more/lasted information, please pass along.

 

[MP3Mike]

Having said that, to enable "powershare" with the new cybertruck may require some additional protocols that are included in the "Universal TWC". Just guessing at this point.

Drew posted that you had to have a Powershare Gateway or a Powerwall to handle the neutral connection. If you don't have a Powerwall you have to have a Universal Wall Connector to handle the start-up process during an outage. (If you have a Powerwall then it handles the startup process, and you don't have a need for the Universal Wall Connector. Unclear if that means that any EVSE will work, or if it needs to be a Tesla Gen2/Gen3 Wall Connector.)

 

[montreid]

Nope, no inverter in the gateway.


Nope, gateway only handles the switching, and the Powershare one handles creating the neutral.

Not DC based, the charger in the car has to be able to be reversed and output AC.

Ty for the explanation. So the pw2 inverter is not used at all while there's an inverter on the CT which is not on other Teslas at this time?

 

[Jones1]

Ty for the explanation. So the pw2 inverter is not used at all while there's an inverter on the CT which is not on other Teslas at this time?

Not if they are saying you will only need a Universal Wall Connector and you don’t have a powerwall.

 

[MP3Mike]

Ty for the explanation. So the pw2 inverter is not used at all while there's an inverter on the CT which is not on other Teslas at this time?

It is probably a bidirectional charger in the Cybertruck vs. an inverter. But yes, no other Tesla currently has Powershare capabilities.

 

[MP3Mike]

Not if they are saying you will only need a Universal Wall Connector and you don’t have a powerwall.

But they don't say that. The minimum is a Powershare Gateway and Universal Wall Connector. Or you can have a Powerwall, which requires a normal Gateway.

 

[Jones1]

But they don't say that. The minimum is a Powershare Gateway and Universal Wall Connector. Or you can have a Powerwall, which requires a normal Gateway.

The gateway isn’t a converter.