Dragtimes P90D Ludicrous 0-60mph and 0-100mph video

[Andyw2100]

As much as I disagree with others on issues, and I use that disagree in the kindest possible way, I can understand a vast majority of the positions expressed. Those that I do not understand, I use a mirror on myself and think they must view me in the same light.

sorka, I think you missed the mark on the quote above when it comes to me. I believe I have enough seat time to comment with conviction. The real issue here for me is that a motor is not an engine. Applying engine standards to a motor so you can be upset is not taking responsibility for knowing the difference. It is not that the PDL can not perform like an ICE up top but that an educated buyer should know that it never had a chance to in a production BeV with a long life battery. This is why I can not get upset over the issue. By the same token, I've heard arguments about buying the car in Europe based solely on the hp numbers and being disappointed. I can not logically dispute that position.

I think it's just hit really me why you haven't been sympathetic to those of us concerned about the 691 HP issue, even though you have certainly demonstrated recently that you are willing to be critical of Tesla on stuff like imposing a penalty for paying for auto pilot features after delivery, when the features aren't yet available. I think it boils down to what you wrote above, and your definition of an educated buyer.

You know so much about high performance cars, BEVs, etc., that what you consider to be an educated buyer I think, if you really try to look at it objectively, you might agree would really have to be considered an EXTREMELY educated buyer. You believe that pretty much anyone who did their research on the P85D should have been able to reach the same conclusion that you did.

I'm suggesting that you're bringing with you a level of expertise that makes it difficult for you to remember how much others may not know. My point is that I don't think it was a lack of trying to educate ourselves that caused us to be mislead, but that at least for some of us, we didn't possess the background and knowledge to be able to educate ourselves to the level necessary to see through the marketing hype.

I'll again use myself as an example. I may not be the most typical example of a P85D customer, but I don't think I'm that much of an outlier either.

I had never shopped for a real performance car before. The P85D cost more than three times what I had ever paid for a new car before. (I had only bought two new cars previously--a 1992 Pontiac Grand Am and a 2004 Acura TL.) I wasn't some rich dandy, throwing money around willy-nilly, deciding to buy the car on a whim, without researching it at all. I actually did a lot of research, but just never reached the point of being able to realize that 691 HP in an electric vehicle didn't mean what it did in an ICE. I watched the D launch video many times. The "everything gets better" part stuck with me, as did the "half again as much power." I started reading threads on TMC, and I quickly came to realize how much people thought of the P85--the car that my car was going to have "half again as much power" as. I was attracted by the tech more than by the performance aspects of the car, as the tech was easier for me to understand.

And as I've also said before, I wouldn't even know there was an issue with my P85D's performance at speed were it not for reading the threads here. My "butt dyno" basically doesn't exist. I'm only upset because I feel like I, and others, were misled, and at this point have received less than we were led to believe we would receive.

I do understand why people like you, lolachampcar aren't upset--you weren't misled because you had a much higher level of expertise to begin with. But I hope you can at least try to put yourself in the shoes of someone without your level of knowledge, and realize how, even if we were trying to glean every bit of knowledge we could about the car before ordering it, we could have failed to understand that the car would not perform as the 691 HP implied it would at speed.

 

[lolachampcar]

absolutely



One thought did occur to me. The P85 that preceded the D variants had something like 4xx horsepower yet I would routinely get trounced by any BMW or Audi with 400ish horsepower over 80 mph. I knew this from experience so the question became, what about the first one I bought. How did I judge that car so that I was not disappointed. I test drove it and learned that it laid down over sixty mph. I guess it is hard for me to understand as I simply do not do things that way.

 

[Pete90D]

Can we stop bringing up the 691 hp topic on every single thread about performance? Outside of quotes, 691 is mentioned 17 times in this thread alone.

I'm sorry that people are upset, I really am, it sucks when you don't get what you expected and I understand it's a touchy topic for many. I'm not saying don't talk about it or don't be upset, everyone is passionate about different things and I respect the dedication. However, this thread and others have been about 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile times, and horsepower is not the only factor in achieving those. Proven by cars with similar power having different times.

We're trying to find out if we can meet the advertised times. There are plenty of threads about horsepower that many people have stopped reading and like myself probably don't want to unsubscribe from threads they care about because the topic keeps coming up. At this point I feel like a thread about next gen seats would have a comment about how they aren't needed because it doesn't have 691hp... it's a drag.

 

[1208]

Can we stop bringing up the 691 hp topic on every single thread about performance? Outside of quotes, 691 is mentioned 17 times in this thread alone.

I'm sorry that people are upset, I really am, it sucks when you don't get what you expected and I understand it's a touchy topic for many. I'm not saying don't talk about it or don't be upset, everyone is passionate about different things and I respect the dedication. However, this thread and others have been about 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile times, and horsepower is not the only factor in achieving those. Proven by cars with similar power having different times.

We're trying to find out if we can meet the advertised times. There are plenty of threads about horsepower that many people have stopped reading and like myself probably don't want to unsubscribe from threads they care about because the topic keeps coming up. At this point I feel like a thread about next gen seats would have a comment about how they aren't needed because it doesn't have 691hp... it's a drag.

+1 Especially as this is in the Video section. Gets annoying when you have to click through pages to see a video.

 

[Ames]

One thing I have learned from this thread (while it stays on topic :cursing is it might be a good idea for me to lose a few lbs before taking delivery.

Apart from that we really need to work hard to get this thing down to 10.9. I wonder how much the wheels and tires that FikseGTS has on his P85D are helping. If I remember correctly, the record-breaking 11.6 was set just after they were fitted. Alignment could also be a factor. Another possibility is powertrain heating. So now we have Inconel contactors and the ability to sustain higher currents, but maybe we are still overheating the powertrain too soon to get a perfect 1/4 mile time. Perhaps 10.9 is only achievable on a single perfect run and cannot be repeated until the car has had significant time to cool down.

I did write to Tesla expressing my concerns about 11.4 Versus 10.9 but I am not expecting any real answer.

Alex

 

[Matias]

I personally would not buy P85D before this discrepancy is cleared.

Ps. I recommend starting a new thread or changing the title and mowing this thread. Most of this thread is not about a video.

 

[lolachampcar]

The P85D performs better than spec'd. The L is in question.

 

[qwertzy]

Here's a P85D running 11.5-11.6 completely stock, and after the v6.2 update

I wonder how much the wheels and tires that FikseGTS has on his P85D are helping

"Weisblat hopes to break the 11.68-second, 115 mph record he set a few months ago. And along with friend and business associate, ADV1 CEO Jordan Swerdloff, he wants to see if ADV1’s aftermarket wheels (special RIMs with Michelin tires) can improve race performance."

http://mashable.com/2015/04/28/tesla-racing/#PsA2YdDSqkqd

 

[Andyw2100]

Can we stop bringing up the 691 hp topic on every single thread about performance?

<Snip>

We're trying to find out if we can meet the advertised times. There are plenty of threads about horsepower that many people have stopped reading and like myself probably don't want to unsubscribe from threads they care about because the topic keeps coming up. At this point I feel like a thread about next gen seats would have a comment about how they aren't needed because it doesn't have 691hp... it's a drag.

The last time I had mentioned the issue in this thread it was because I was hoping to perhaps close some of the gap (or at least explain it) between how lolachampcar and I feel about the issue.

We have disagreed on the issue. He is someone here who I respect a great deal. When I disagree with someone I respect, I usually re-evaluate my own beliefs, to see if they could be wrong. In this case I've done that, and decided that I'm not going to change how I feel on the subject. So the next step, then, is to try to figure out why this person I have so much respect for would feel so differently.

Yesterday I read something in one of lolachampcar's posts, and a lightbulb went off over my head, so I posted, hoping to bring us closer together on the issue. I think I succeeded, at least a little:

I think it's just hit really me why you haven't been sympathetic to those of us concerned... <snip>. I think it boils down to what you wrote above, and your definition of an educated buyer.

You know so much about high performance cars, BEVs, etc., that what you consider to be an educated buyer I think, if you really try to look at it objectively, you might agree would really have to be considered an EXTREMELY educated buyer. <Snip>

I'm suggesting that you're bringing with you a level of expertise that makes it difficult for you to remember how much others may not know. <Snip> But I hope you can at least try to put yourself in the shoes of someone without your level of knowledge <Snip>

absolutely

The other aspect of it, though is that the issue that you, Pete90D are tired of seeing discussed everywhere and the issue being discussed in this thread are, in fact, closely related. The jury is certainly still out with respect to the P90D with Ludicrous and the quarter mile time. But if over time it turns out that the car just can't be made to deliver the 10.9 second quarter mile time (and I'm by no means suggesting that I think that is the case) the reason could certainly be the same reason that you don't want to see discussed in this thread. So while I agree we have no need to bring up all the issues surrounding that issue in this thread, the basic issue is probably relevant, and likely to come up as this discussion continues.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Seeing all the discussion about the P90DL still coming up short in the 1/4 mile runs makes me wonder if this might just be some caution exercised by Tesla for the first few months of rollout. Even though the new fuse allows an increase from 1300 amps up to 1500 amps, they may choose to increase the maximum gradually over time. This would allow evaluation of the first few months of deliveries so they can determine the reliability of the fuse and drive train. Unlike other cars, Tesla can easily be upgraded over the air (I assume that includes current limits, etc.) so why not be a little cautious with the first deliveries? Has anyone one heard of the new fuse blowing so far? I'm sure even a few fuse trips would be highly publicized by the ICE crowd and would be a bad PR hit for Tesla.

 

[andrewket]

The new fuse is in fact not a normal fuse. It's software controlled and is interrupted using pyrotechnics. Tesla can change the settings remotely.

 

[lolachampcar]

I do not think so........ Don't know for sure, but my gut tells me that fuse is nowhere near a CAN bus.

 

[brianman]

I do not think so........ Don't know for sure, but my gut tells me that fuse is nowhere near a CAN bus.

If it's reachable "outside of Tesla", I really hope someone teaches lola how to do that. He seems like he might have some fun with that.

 

[P85DEE]

Seeing all the discussion about the P90DL still coming up short in the 1/4 mile runs makes me wonder if this might just be some caution exercised by Tesla for the first few months of rollout. Even though the new fuse allows an increase from 1300 amps up to 1500 amps, they may choose to increase the maximum gradually over time. This would allow evaluation of the first few months of deliveries so they can determine the reliability of the fuse and drive train. Unlike other cars, Tesla can easily be upgraded over the air (I assume that includes current limits, etc.) so why not be a little cautious with the first deliveries? Has anyone one heard of the new fuse blowing so far? I'm sure even a few fuse trips would be highly publicized by the ICE crowd and would be a bad PR hit for Tesla.

I thought about that too.

But if that is in fact the case, well then why are they advertising 10.9 now?????

When they sell the P90D Ludicrous, they sell it presumably with the capability to run 10.9 presently, as opposed to some time in the future.

If I were purchasing a car advertised to be capable of a 10.9 second quarter mile time, then I'd expect for it to be capable of doing so as soon as I took delivery of it, as opposed to after a software tweak.

 

[Andyw2100]

Seeing all the discussion about the P90DL still coming up short in the 1/4 mile runs makes me wonder if this might just be some caution exercised by Tesla for the first few months of rollout. Even though the new fuse allows an increase from 1300 amps up to 1500 amps, they may choose to increase the maximum gradually over time. This would allow evaluation of the first few months of deliveries so they can determine the reliability of the fuse and drive train. Unlike other cars, Tesla can easily be upgraded over the air (I assume that includes current limits, etc.) so why not be a little cautious with the first deliveries? Has anyone one heard of the new fuse blowing so far? I'm sure even a few fuse trips would be highly publicized by the ICE crowd and would be a bad PR hit for Tesla.

I suggested a while ago, in this thread and others, that I thought it was possible Tesla just hadn't released the full Ludicrous capabilities yet. My only issue with that, if it proves to be true, is the fact that they aren't communicating the short-term limitations to the people buying the cars, but rather forcing the customers to figure out on their own that the cars are not yet performing as advertised.

Tesla did exactly the same thing with the P85D with respect to efficiency numbers, releasing the model with no torque sleep capabilities, but also no mention of the limitations. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were doing something similar now.

 

[Pete90D]

The other aspect of it, though is that the issue that you, Pete90D are tired of seeing discussed everywhere and the issue being discussed in this thread are, in fact, closely related. The jury is certainly still out with respect to the P90D with Ludicrous and the quarter mile time. But if over time it turns out that the car just can't be made to deliver the 10.9 second quarter mile time (and I'm by no means suggesting that I think that is the case) the reason could certainly be the same reason that you don't want to see discussed in this thread. So while I agree we have no need to bring up all the issues surrounding that issue in this thread, the basic issue is probably relevant, and likely to come up as this discussion continues.

I'm aware that horsepower plays a role in reaching certain times. However, it is not the only factor. A R8 V10 Plus has a 0-60 of 3.2s, 11.3s 1/4, 1400lb lighter, 610hp @ 8200rpms. A P90D has a 0-60 of 2.8s, 612hp (if you simply convert 456kW). So how does 2hp and 1400lb heavier make a -0.4s 0-60 difference make sense? Because it isn't all about the number.

More analysis has been done on horsepower of the car than weight. Do we know what the exact weight is? or how much a pano roof weighs? or the acceleration differences of 19 vs 21 wheels, or if air suspension (baffles, compressor, connectors, etc) adds or subtracts weight?

Using an estimator for 1/4 mile, 100lb on a 5000lb car would make a 0.075s difference. They used a base model, which probably means 19s, no pano, coils, fewer speakers, no sub or box, no nextgen seats. Found a reference that the old AMG site said the pano added ~200lb so if that's the same then that's 0.15 difference, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 300lb with the rest of the differences (sub alone might weigh 30lb). They also said they use a medium weight driver, I'm not medium weight, but what is 160? 170? If Burt's output of 11.3s has been rounded up like I've seen, then he's in the 11.2 range with 21" wheels. Then there's temperature, elevation, SOC. Out of all my runs my best time was between 84-85% SOC, was Burt at 90 or 85?

We haven't even seen exact times from Burt's VBOX files. 11.3 on the screen could be 11.21 and a 0.225s difference from weight would be 10.985. So for all we know it is very possible to be in the 10.9 range, but the topic of the P85D not producing advertised horsepower or not having expected power at highway speed is being discussed again.

edit: Apparent the PBOX will round down too so my statement is slightly off and it could be 11.115s

- - - Updated - - -

Tesla did exactly the same thing with the P85D with respect to efficiency numbers, releasing the model with no torque sleep capabilities, but also no mention of the limitations. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were doing something similar now.

I've only received one update since I bought it. As soon as v7 is released I'll upgrade and test again.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm aware that horsepower plays a role in reaching certain times. However, it is not the only factor.

I certainly didn't in any way mean to imply that you wouldn't know that. You've clearly demonstrated in the fairly short time you've been around that you know a heck of a lot about this stuff. I was only trying to suggest that because of how the issues are related, some discussion of the other issue was probably going to be inevitable when discussing the P90D with Ludicrous possibly not hitting the quarter mile time.

The other thing, that neither of us mentioned, is that this thread has also wandered into discussion of what the upgraded P85Ds with Ludicrous are going to be capable of. And Tesla themselves, because of what they included on the update website, has lowered expectations there.

I think we can certainly all be conscious of trying not to drag most of the issues surrounding the 691 issue into this thread. But I think as things develop, and depending on how they develop, it may be inevitable that people may start making comparisons. The topic shouldn't be considered a taboo topic, just because it has been discussed a lot if it is actually germane to the conversation at hand. That's really all I'm saying.

 

[Pete90D]

The other thing, that neither of us mentioned, is that this thread has also wandered into discussion of what the upgraded P85Ds with Ludicrous are going to be capable of. And Tesla themselves, because of what they included on the update website, has lowered expectations there.

I think we can certainly all be conscious of trying not to drag most of the issues surrounding the 691 issue into this thread. But I think as things develop, and depending on how they develop, it may be inevitable that people may start making comparisons. The topic shouldn't be considered a taboo topic, just because it has been discussed a lot if it is actually germane to the conversation at hand. That's really all I'm saying.

That's fair. I apologize if I sounded defensive in any way.

 

[Andyw2100]

That's fair. I apologize if I sounded defensive in any way.

You didn't sound defensive.

I just didn't want you to think I could possibly think that you wouldn't have known that horsepower could play a role in quarter mile times. I am fully aware of the fact that you are far ahead of me in your understanding of the technical aspects of this stuff. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

 

[Pete90D]

You didn't sound defensive.

I just didn't want you to think I could possibly think that you wouldn't have known that horsepower could play a role in quarter mile times. I am fully aware of the fact that you are far ahead of me in your understanding of the technical aspects of this stuff. I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

I don't know that I know that much about it. I'm just really analytical and I remember way too much (it's a curse trust me). sorka and fiksegts and several others definitely know way more. I just try to share what I can.