Dragy times for Plaid and LR

[EndlessPlaid]

Working on it--been going through the DBC to find messages and signals that are interesting. It seems a lot of signals for the rear motors have not been mapped yet.

Thank you so much for updating us! This pretty much confirms my suspicions that the equipment is reading the car wrong.
Maybe I should have stated this earlier, but what I meant by 'wrong' was as in not in the system yet, because it is too new of a model. It could be in turn multiplying outputs incorrectly, as a Model S with a dual rear motor unit has never existed before.

 

[AMGF]

I am curious to know what the actual power output is, but it is not that important to me. I see the fights between people with regards to the 0-60mph and 1ft roll out and I am thinking dudes, it doesn’t matter. 0-60mph were relevant 30 years ago when cars would take 7sec to reach 60mph. Nowadays it’s traction limited for most performance cars anyway. Not super important when all top cars are in the same 1sec.

I see people fighting on forums about hp at the crank vs wheels. Again, it’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter. It’s only bragging rights. I had a friend that called me bragging his E63s was close to 800hp because some dude somewhere ran his on a dyno and got some power that multiplied by some number for parasitic losses meant he has 800hp. So what?

The only data that matter is ET and trap. That’s all you need to know to have a very clear idea of how that car accelerates. In both metrics the Plaid destroys anything stock. I refrain from posting when I see clueless dude on the delivery forum thinking someone would not feel the difference between a Plaid and a LR?? What the **** man? It’s freaking night and day. It’s M3P vs Golf GTI difference.

Now as I said I’m still curious what is the actual power output of the car. Whether it’s 1020hp or more makes no actual difference. But it would explain how this 5000lbs luxury sedan gets down the strip so quickly. Because if it really is 1020hp, then the lighter and twice as powerful Rimac should be much quicker. Which would then bring the question: why is the Plaid so quick with only 1020hp compared to the 1900hp Rimac?

 

[TorqueMonster]

I am curious to know what the actual power output is, but it is not that important to me. I see the fights between people with regards to the 0-60mph and 1ft roll out and I am thinking dudes, it doesn’t matter. 0-60mph were relevant 30 years ago when cars would take 7sec to reach 60mph. Nowadays it’s traction limited for most performance cars anyway. Not super important when all top cars are in the same 1sec.

I see people fighting on forums about hp at the crank vs wheels. Again, it’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter. It’s only bragging rights. I had a friend that called me bragging his E63s was close to 800hp because some dude somewhere ran his on a dyno and got some power that multiplied by some number for parasitic losses meant he has 800hp. So what?

The only data that matter is ET and trap. That’s all you need to know to have a very clear idea of how that car accelerates. In both metrics the Plaid destroys anything stock. I refrain from posting when I see clueless dude on the delivery forum thinking someone would not feel the difference between a Plaid and a LR?? What the **** man? It’s freaking night and day. It’s M3P vs Golf GTI difference.

Now as I said I’m still curious what is the actual power output of the car. Whether it’s 1020hp or more makes no actual difference. But it would explain how this 5000lbs luxury sedan gets down the strip so quickly. Because if it really is 1020hp, then the lighter and twice as powerful Rimac should be much quicker. Which would then bring the question: why is the Plaid so quick with only 1020hp compared to the 1900hp Rimac?

Absolutely agree. This is more of a curiosity thing for me as well. Whatever the answer is, it works VERY well. They are able to thermal manage it and make it consistent and reliable. We are just some techno geeks here probing a little further. Ultimately like you said, it all comes down to 1/4 time AND trap speed.

 

[EndlessPlaid]

I am curious to know what the actual power output is, but it is not that important to me. I see the fights between people with regards to the 0-60mph and 1ft roll out and I am thinking dudes, it doesn’t matter. 0-60mph were relevant 30 years ago when cars would take 7sec to reach 60mph. Nowadays it’s traction limited for most performance cars anyway. Not super important when all top cars are in the same 1sec.

I see people fighting on forums about hp at the crank vs wheels. Again, it’s irrelevant. It doesn’t matter. It’s only bragging rights. I had a friend that called me bragging his E63s was close to 800hp because some dude somewhere ran his on a dyno and got some power that multiplied by some number for parasitic losses meant he has 800hp. So what?

The only data that matter is ET and trap. That’s all you need to know to have a very clear idea of how that car accelerates. In both metrics the Plaid destroys anything stock. I refrain from posting when I see clueless dude on the delivery forum thinking someone would not feel the difference between a Plaid and a LR?? What the **** man? It’s freaking night and day. It’s M3P vs Golf GTI difference.

Now as I said I’m still curious what is the actual power output of the car. Whether it’s 1020hp or more makes no actual difference. But it would explain how this 5000lbs luxury sedan gets down the strip so quickly. Because if it really is 1020hp, then the lighter and twice as powerful Rimac should be much quicker. Which would then bring the question: why is the Plaid so quick with only 1020hp compared to the 1900hp Rimac?

Well, to be fair, the Rimac would absolutely spank a Plaid. We're talking about a mid to low 8 second car vs. a low 9 second car. Over 10 car lengths. And actually, the Rimac and Plaid are within 16 pounds of weight. 4766 vs. 4750 pounds.
The answer to your second question is 2 fold: If the Rimac has a high peak, but can't hold the power for too long, then the Plaid uses it's power much more efficiently. I STILL think that the Plaid's power curve can be underappreciated at times.
Additionally, look. The Plaid is already approaching where physics become the limiting factor. So after 60 mph is where the differences really show.
Here's a good metric: The 0-186 mph (300 kph) time of each car. The Plaid will be in the low 14 second range, and a really fast car made for top speed, the Bugatti Chiron, does that task in the mid to high 13 second range. The Rimac is 9.3 seconds! By the time the Plaid crosses the 1/4 mile at 153 mph, the Rimac is nearing 200. Also, the Rimac is geared for 258 mph, so the launch, although great, is not the main target. This is where you can see that the Rimac just has a crapton of power, but the Plaid is like a scalpel with its, using every ounce, and maximizing as much as possible!

 

[AMGF]

Absolutely agree. This is more of a curiosity thing for me as well. Whatever the answer is, it works VERY well. They are able to thermal manage it and make it consistent and reliable. We are just some techno geeks here probing a little further. Ultimately like you said, it all comes down to 1/4 time AND trap speed.

Yeah either Tesla is lying about the output or they have found a way to absolutely maximize every kw of power from these battery/motors. Either way, I’m really curious to get the actual answer.

 

[AMGF]

Well, to be fair, the Rimac would absolutely spank a Plaid. We're talking about a mid to low 8 second car vs. a low 9 second car. Over 10 car lengths. And actually, the Rimac and Plaid are within 16 pounds of weight. 4766 vs. 4750 pounds.
The answer to your second question is 2 fold: If the Rimac has a high peak, but can't hold the power for too long, then the Plaid uses it's power much more efficiently. I STILL think that the Plaid's power curve can be underappreciated at times.
Additionally, look. The Plaid is already approaching where physics become the limiting factor. So after 60 mph is where the differences really show.
Here's a good metric: The 0-186 mph (300 kph) time of each car. The Plaid will be in the low 14 second range, and a really fast car made for top speed, the Bugatti Chiron, does that task in the mid to high 13 second range. The Rimac is 9.3 seconds! By the time the Plaid crosses the 1/4 mile at 153 mph, the Rimac is nearing 200. Also, the Rimac is geared for 258 mph, so the launch, although great, is not the main target.

Ok that peak and gearing are likely responsible for some of the gap for sure.

 

[EndlessPlaid]

Ok that peak and gearing are likely responsible for some of the gap for sure.

Yepper! The Plaid is massively impressive to me, because it makes use of everything it has in an incredibly efficient manner.

 

[TorqueMonster]

Yeah either Tesla is lying about the output or they have found a way to absolutely maximize every kw of power from these battery/motors. Either way, I’m really curious to get the actual answer.

i honestly do not think Tesla is lying. we shall see soon...

 

[AMGF]

i honestly do not think Tesla is lying. we shall see soon...

Looking at your avatar some of the answer certainly lies there. That flat power curve is impressive.

 

[SignatureSales]

How much lighter are these wheels compared to stock?

20" is about 10lb lighter than stock 21".

We also offer 19" setup that could save 15~20+lb on each corner.

 

[EndlessPlaid]

Looking at your avatar some of the answer certainly lies there. That flat power curve is impressive.

Well, and also it's good to remember that the Plaid is putting down a approximate 993 hp to the wheels. That's equivalent to a 1200/1300 hp ICE car. And THEN, it can hold max power throughout the entire 1/4 mile! I truly don't think Tesla is lying here. At the most, maybe being conservative by 20 hp, but nothing crazy. It's amazing what Tesla has done with the power they have. Shows that just throwing power at a car doesn't solve anything. It's about how you use it.

 

[TorqueMonster]

Well, and also it's good to remember that the Plaid is putting down a approximate 993 hp to the wheels. That's equivalent to a 1200/1300 hp ICE car. And THEN, it can hold max power throughout the entire 1/4 mile! I truly don't think Tesla is lying here. At the most, maybe being conservative by 20 hp, but nothing crazy. It's amazing what Tesla has done with the power they have. Shows that just throwing power at a car doesn't solve anything. It's about how you use it

exactly. ICE cars have a peak HP that drops off, large drive train loss, and also has to have to shift gears. a flat power curve like the Plaid is unheard of and I don't think standard drag racing calcs take all this into effect.

 

[AMGF]

More insanity! It makes waiting for my Plaid somewhat easier not as bad.

 

[EndlessPlaid]

exactly. ICE cars have a peak HP that drops off, large drive train loss, and also has to have to shift gears. a flat power curve like the Plaid is unheard of and I don't think standard drag racing calcs take all this into effect.

Precisely! The Plaid has one gear reduction ratio, vs. the 6 to 8+ ratios that ICEs have. Like you said, nothing like this has ever existed before, where it can not only make max torque at 0 rpm, and max power soon after, but it can hold that power with an extreme low percentage of losses.

 

[omarsultan]

Thank you so much for updating us! This pretty much confirms my suspicions that the equipment is reading the car wrong.
Maybe I should have stated this earlier, but what I meant by 'wrong' was as in not in the system yet, because it is too new of a model. It could be in turn multiplying outputs incorrectly, as a Model S with a dual rear motor unit has never existed before.

I don't think this is quite the case--these are the raw values being pulled off the CANbus so there is no math or transformation on the values--this is the same data the car is using and the message IDs are fairly clear.

One of the reasons I keep putting pedal position in the graphs is its is an externally verifiable event we can use to validate what we are looking at. The shape of the curves make sense, but the vertical scale is causing questions.

 

[omarsultan]

Here is a graph of current:

• Teal is the draw from the battery
• The blues are the different motors--you can see the rears are almost identical and the front is a little lower

 

[TorqueMonster]

More insanity! It makes waiting for my Plaid somewhat easier not as bad.

this video isn't making you wait any easier....

 

[AMGF]

this video isn't making you wait any easier....

It does. When I go a couple days without a new (quality) Plaid video I’m like what the hell guys, go out and shoot some footage for us waiting patiently for our cars!!

What kills my mood is the posts on the delivery forum that no 19s have been delivered or that these deliveries will be pushed to October.

See I’m in Canada and in a race against the clock. Our Prime minister had the stupid idea to put a new 20% tax on the amount over 100k$ for new cars starting Jan 1st. Meaning if I take possession after Dec 31st I get to pay 14k$ extra taxes on top of the 25k$ taxes I already have to pay (Plaid is 170k$can so 15% taxes on 170k$ + 20% on 70k$). I won’t. Out of principle. Out of common sense. At one point we have to collectively say that’s enough. I know many people who are pissed at that.

If I don’t get the car by then I’m not sure what I’ll do. Maybe just hang on to my Model3 and buy the new Lotus Emira as a fun/weekend car or wait for a used LR. I really don’t know.

 

[TorqueMonster]

It does. When I go a couple days without a new (quality) Plaid video I’m like what the hell guys, go out and shoot some footage for us waiting patiently for our cars!!

What kills my mood is the posts on the delivery forum that no 19s have been delivered or that these deliveries will be pushed to October.

See I’m in Canada and in a race against the clock. Our Prime minister had the stupid idea to put a new 20% tax on the amount over 100k$ for new cars starting Jan 1st. Meaning if I take possession after Dec 31st I get to pay 14k$ extra taxes on top of the 25k$ taxes I already have to pay (Plaid is 170k$can so 15% taxes on 170k$ + 20% on 70k$). I won’t. Out of principle. Out of common sense. At one point we have to collectively say that’s enough. I know many people who are pissed at that.

If I don’t get the car by then I’m not sure what I’ll do. Maybe just hang on to my Model3 and buy the new Lotus Emira as a fun/weekend car or wait for a used LR. I really don’t know.

Ouch on the taxes! I can understand the frustration. would you normally pay 15% on the 170k?

 

[omarsultan]

One more showing voltage sag--top traces are at the motors, bottom are the pedal position and vehicle speed (kph). The one consistent pattern I see is once the car hits 60 mph, it draws less power. Not sure if that is by design (sandbagging) or there is some system limit.