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Electric planes
- Thread starter doug
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- Electric Vehicles
I can just go by what the story says:
Clearly the lead picture on the story is a render, but the quote above leads me to believe that there was actual hardware on display in Paris.
It does make sense to me, keeping in mind that the "Aluminum Air battery" is not a mass production product at this point. I believe it has been demonstrated to work in the lab, but it's a ways from being reality.
Etna
Member
Phinergy also did a car prototype in 2013 that had a demonstration pack of about 350kWh that weighed 55 lbs.
Phinergy 1000-Mile Aluminum-Air Battery: On The Road In 2017?
Clearly they are not approaching commercialization in 2017 as forecast in that story though.
Apparently not.
That electrek article also said, quote: "in a 2002 study, researchers from the University of Rhode Island concluded that aluminum-air batteries were the only electric-car technology "projected to have a travel range comparable" to conventional cars."
Given that current the Model S 100D has a range in excess of 300 miles, that study turned out to be wrong as well.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Last time I took an in depth look at Phinergy I didn't find any 3rd party confirmation if it's claims.
swaltner
Active Member
I went to Oshkosh this year. OK, EAA's AirVenture EAA AirVenture Oshkosh | Oshkosh, Wisconsin | Fly-In & Convention, but, like most pilots, I simply call it "Oshkosh". Had a fun time and tried to get a little more info about the state of electric aircraft as I continue to save my pennies for the Pipistrel Taurus Electro. Talked to most of the alphabet salad groups that were there about the state of electric aircraft.
Pipistrel Pipistrel USA, Sinus, Virus, Taurus, Apis LSA Aircraft Motorgliders Gliders has a prime location for their booth at Oshkosh. For at least two years now, they've been right along the main walkway 100' feet into the grounds from the main entrance. They had a Taurus (gas version), Sinus, and Virus. They also had an Alpha Electro at their booth that was just imported into the country. It's owned by Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum in California and was getting delivered to them after Oshkosh. Electric Fleet « Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum. My understanding is that due to the restrictions on the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) certification rules that only allow piston engines, these aircraft are currently getting an Experimental Race/Exhibition registration. They are working with the FAA to get operating limitations to where they can do flight training in this aircraft.
I also stopped by the SSA (Soaring Society of America - Soaring Society of America) booth at show center where they had an Alisport Silent Electro on display. Chatted with the owned of the Electro and developed a huge man-crush on him when he said he's retired, had sold the house, and now tows the Silent Electro with his Tesla Model X around the eastern part of the country like a nomad from gliderport to gliderport. There's maybe a little artistic license in that last statement, but it's how I remember it.
EAA wouldn't let him keep the Model X on the grounds during the show, but before the official opening, he had it there to tow the trailer to the SSA booth and had the falcon wing doors open. As Model X owners are aware, parked there with the doors open, he said it drew in huge crowds. Something about people being attracted to the FWD like flies to poo... In the Model 3 towing thread, I mentioned wanting to tow a glider trailer with the Model 3 that I have reserved. This owner said he took about a 30% range hit on the Model X while towing the long and low-slung trailer for his glider.
I had a chat with someone at the FAA building and they confirmed that something like the Taurus Electro would get registered as Experimental Race/Exhibition. Many gliders that get imported into the US are also registered in this category, however, most of those that fall into that are single place competition gliders. In that case, the limitations are not too intrusive. Basically, you file a program letter with the FAA every year, outlining where you intend to fly the aircraft in competition and in practice for the competitions. This was how the Silent Electro was registered. For the Taurus Electro, with two seats, there is the issue that passengers would be allowed if they were required crew members. I'd be hard pressed to argue that a 10-year old child that I was giving a ride to with EAA's Young Eagles program was a required crew member.
It's not all bad with the FAA though. The FAA is already working internally on changes to the certification rules that would allow electric power without the restrictions that get placed by putting aircraft into the various Experimental classes that are available. It would be a few years before the regulations are updated so the FAA can catch up with the rapidly changing technology though. When the LSA rules were written 10 years ago, there weren't any viable electric aircraft, so they didn't make plans for them in the LSA certification rules and simply said "reciprocating engines only". This was done to keep turbine/jet engines and/or rockets Rocket Racing League - Wikipedia from being used.
Also stopped by the EAA and AOPA booths to ask them if they were working with the FAA on the rule changes for electric aircraft. Neither of them were really aware of internal efforts to assist in those rule changes.
I'm still a couple years from being ready to purchase the Taurus Electro, so it's not a pressing issue yet, but I will keep track of changes to the certification rules that make electric powered aircraft difficult (but not impossible) to fly in the USA.
Pipistrel Pipistrel USA, Sinus, Virus, Taurus, Apis LSA Aircraft Motorgliders Gliders has a prime location for their booth at Oshkosh. For at least two years now, they've been right along the main walkway 100' feet into the grounds from the main entrance. They had a Taurus (gas version), Sinus, and Virus. They also had an Alpha Electro at their booth that was just imported into the country. It's owned by Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum in California and was getting delivered to them after Oshkosh. Electric Fleet « Tomorrow's Aeronautical Museum. My understanding is that due to the restrictions on the LSA (Light Sport Aircraft) certification rules that only allow piston engines, these aircraft are currently getting an Experimental Race/Exhibition registration. They are working with the FAA to get operating limitations to where they can do flight training in this aircraft.
I also stopped by the SSA (Soaring Society of America - Soaring Society of America) booth at show center where they had an Alisport Silent Electro on display. Chatted with the owned of the Electro and developed a huge man-crush on him when he said he's retired, had sold the house, and now tows the Silent Electro with his Tesla Model X around the eastern part of the country like a nomad from gliderport to gliderport. There's maybe a little artistic license in that last statement, but it's how I remember it.
EAA wouldn't let him keep the Model X on the grounds during the show, but before the official opening, he had it there to tow the trailer to the SSA booth and had the falcon wing doors open. As Model X owners are aware, parked there with the doors open, he said it drew in huge crowds. Something about people being attracted to the FWD like flies to poo... In the Model 3 towing thread, I mentioned wanting to tow a glider trailer with the Model 3 that I have reserved. This owner said he took about a 30% range hit on the Model X while towing the long and low-slung trailer for his glider.I had a chat with someone at the FAA building and they confirmed that something like the Taurus Electro would get registered as Experimental Race/Exhibition. Many gliders that get imported into the US are also registered in this category, however, most of those that fall into that are single place competition gliders. In that case, the limitations are not too intrusive. Basically, you file a program letter with the FAA every year, outlining where you intend to fly the aircraft in competition and in practice for the competitions. This was how the Silent Electro was registered. For the Taurus Electro, with two seats, there is the issue that passengers would be allowed if they were required crew members. I'd be hard pressed to argue that a 10-year old child that I was giving a ride to with EAA's Young Eagles program was a required crew member.
It's not all bad with the FAA though. The FAA is already working internally on changes to the certification rules that would allow electric power without the restrictions that get placed by putting aircraft into the various Experimental classes that are available. It would be a few years before the regulations are updated so the FAA can catch up with the rapidly changing technology though. When the LSA rules were written 10 years ago, there weren't any viable electric aircraft, so they didn't make plans for them in the LSA certification rules and simply said "reciprocating engines only". This was done to keep turbine/jet engines and/or rockets Rocket Racing League - Wikipedia from being used.
Also stopped by the EAA and AOPA booths to ask them if they were working with the FAA on the rule changes for electric aircraft. Neither of them were really aware of internal efforts to assist in those rule changes.
I'm still a couple years from being ready to purchase the Taurus Electro, so it's not a pressing issue yet, but I will keep track of changes to the certification rules that make electric powered aircraft difficult (but not impossible) to fly in the USA.
I also stopped by the SSA (Soaring Society of America - Soaring Society of America) booth at show center where they had an Alisport Silent Electro on display. Chatted with the owned of the Electro and developed a huge man-crush on him when he said he's retired, had sold the house, and now tows the Silent Electro with his Tesla Model X around the eastern part of the country like a nomad from gliderport to gliderport. There's maybe a little artistic license in that last statement, but it's how I remember it.
As an aside: There is more than one family towing an electric glider with a Model X. Lake City, FL if I remember correctly:
There is a significant problem with electric airplanes, especially in general aviation, in particular - flight training. If a prospective pilot obtains most, if not all of their training in an electric airplane, it would be difficult in theory to fly other planes. There's a ton of stuff with ICE planes that wouldn't exist in an e-plane: fuel levels, fuel mixture, fuel tank management, carburetor heat, etc. A pilot with electric plane time exclusively would likely have to get separate training to fly a gas burning plane.
Etna
Member
Many recent trainer aircraft have a single fuel tank thus no fuel tank management, and are injection engines thus no carburetor heat. Fuel levels are no different than energy available. So that leaves fuel mixture, big deal. This can be addressed in a single training flight of less than an hour like one you would get anyway for getting checked out on a type for renting, or getting checked out for the first time on a variable pitch aircraft.
So no, I don't see an issue there at all.
So no, I don't see an issue there at all.
Recent. Key word. Many flying clubs and flight schools will teach their students on airplanes that are older than the student if they're on the younger side. My local flight school uses Cessnas from the 1970s for teaching; glass cockpit retrofits are out of the question, much less newer airplanes from a cost perspective. Electric airplanes may exist now or in the near future; they'll be too expensive for many of these smaller outfits that operate on razor thin margins. As far as I'm concerned for the next decade, electric airplanes will only benefit flying clubs with high roller members, and the big flight schools like Embry Riddle.
Etna
Member
Flight schools will do the math and figure out where electric power is breaking even for them, in terms of flight hours per year.
New glass cockpits and new aircraft do not reduce operating costs. Electric power certainly does reduce fuel, maintenance and engine overhaul costs (electric engine likely won't even have a TBO anymore). Electric engines also do not suffer from shock cooling when doing these repeated circuit patterns and engine out simulations, which are notoriously hard on the engines. They are also inherently more reliable and safer, which can reduce insurance costs.
Considering all that, it wouldn't surprise me that an electric trainer will pay for itself even for mom and pop trainer operations, as long as the aircraft is kept busy throughout the year.
New glass cockpits and new aircraft do not reduce operating costs. Electric power certainly does reduce fuel, maintenance and engine overhaul costs (electric engine likely won't even have a TBO anymore). Electric engines also do not suffer from shock cooling when doing these repeated circuit patterns and engine out simulations, which are notoriously hard on the engines. They are also inherently more reliable and safer, which can reduce insurance costs.
Considering all that, it wouldn't surprise me that an electric trainer will pay for itself even for mom and pop trainer operations, as long as the aircraft is kept busy throughout the year.
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
voyager
Active Member
Here is an interesting overview of all the so-called eVTOL concepts, aircraft that use battery power and that takeoff and land vertically. Most of them initiated in the U.S.
Here is an interesting overview of all the so-called eVTOL concepts, aircraft that use battery power and that takeoff and land vertically. Most of them initiated in the U.S.
I feel sorry for air traffic control should these come to fruition. Los Angeles' airspace is as crowded as its roads between LAX and the 4 other major airports along with general aviation traffic. eVTOL autonomous taxis will congest the airspace even further. But I'm convinced this is going to pan out as poorly as helicopter taxis, which were hailed as the future of intra-city transport for the super wealthy (the wealthy stayed on terra firma).
Etna
Member
eVTOL will have zero impact on ATC since they will normally fly below 1000 ft. And being electric and eventually autonomous, they will cost peanuts to operate and no targeted to the super wealthy at all.
If this whole deal will fail, it will be for other reasons like noise, other novel sustainable means of transportation, etc. (apologies to be a pain)
If this whole deal will fail, it will be for other reasons like noise, other novel sustainable means of transportation, etc. (apologies to be a pain)
voyager
Active Member
I agree. Noise level and the prospect of accident free, low level, automated flight will be decisive. If any of those will not follow through, the whole eVTOL thing may be doomed. Although you might say that, like helicopters (that's the mode of transport eVTOL will first aim for), one craft will be better or worse than the other. You make your pick from the overview I posted.
Noise will kill it, especially in NIMBY infested cities like Los Angeles. Electric propulsion is a plus at reducing noise levels. However, eVTOLs would fly really low as you described. That doesn't help with the noise at all. Propellers are a noisy form of moving aircraft plain and simple. In addition, there would be WAY more of these eVTOL aircraft flying all over cities, which would contribute to even more noise pollution.
voyager
Active Member
Unless the eVTOLs come in at say 1000 feet, then start the vertical descend... scarily rapid for the first 700 ft maybe, then in a 'controlled fashion' for the last 300 ft. Btw, what's called shrouding the electric rotors (or fans), in other words having them surrounded by cowling, will definitely help to suppress the noise. The cowling can even enhance the thrust. Below the hybrid-electric XTI TriFan 600 that reportedly already welcomed a launching customer, despite being misty about its specs. After vertical ascend, its fans rotate to deliver forward thrust, upon which the fuselage-mounted third fan will be closed off.
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