Electrify Everything

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Don't see natural gas in the thread title, but you can file this one under "electrify everything":

PG&E Gets on Board With All-Electric New Buildings in California

OK.

The UK is doing a similar transition.

Last year the UK chancellor announced that new homes would have "low carbon" heating instead of natural gas, from 2025.

Low-carbon heating to replace gas in new UK homes after 2025

Scotland will introduce the rule from 2024:

New rules for low carbon heating in Scots homes

Renewable or low carbon.

Only problem is that renewable probably includes wood stoves, use of which is increasing in the UK, so it's becoming a significant source of pollution.

 

[iPlug]

Anyone transitioned from an outdoor propane/wood/charcoal portable barbecue grill to an electric one?

There seem to be some decent small 120 V ones, but medium to large standard unit size grilling power would require 240 V. A cursory search of such items online reveals only build-in options.

Thoughts?

 

[nwdiver]

I expect gas companies to fight back even more fiercely. We also need a cultural shift when it comes to gas cooking. It has this misplaced aura of superiority over electric when all it really does is contaminate the air in your home. The Gas Company in NM successfully negotiated with Xcel to end Xcel's practice of discounting electric rates for all-electric homes.

I know late is better than never but it's infuriating that we're still building homes with gas lines when that practice should have ended ~20 years ago in most of the country. Heat pumps work great. Unless you live in an area that sees <0F temperatures >10 days a years having a gas line run into your home is insane

Only problem is that renewable probably includes wood stoves, use of which is increasing in the UK, so it's becoming a significant source of pollution.

I think wood stoves can still play a role, just not as a primary source of heating. My home in WA has a wood stove. I would use the heat pump ~95% of the time then use the wood stove on the rare occasion that it's ~20F outside and the heat pump is struggling or if there's a power outage. Modern wood stove burn fairly clean.

 

[SageBrush]

I expect gas companies to fight back even more fiercely. We also need a cultural shift when it comes to gas cooking. It has this misplaced aura of superiority over electric when all it really does is contaminate the air in your home. The Gas Company in NM successfully negotiated with Xcel to end Xcel's practice of discounting electric rates for all-electric homes.

I know late is better than never but it's infuriating that we're still building homes with gas lines when that practice should have ended ~20 years ago in most of the country. Heat pumps work great. Unless you live in an area that sees <0F temperatures >10 days a years having a gas line run into your home is insane



I think wood stoves can still play a role, just not as a primary source of heating. My home in WA has a wood stove. I would use the heat pump ~95% of the time then use the wood stove on the rare occasion that it's ~20F outside and the heat pump is struggling or if there's a power outage. Modern wood stove burn fairly clean.

'Fairly clean' is in the eyes of the breather I suppose.

One thing I am struggling with in my plans to convert my home to all electric is interior air quality. It is not the change to electric per se, but the transition from open to closed windows. I don't think I'll be happy until I integrate heat exchangers into my home. My wife, ever ready to point out discrepancies in my thinking, likes to ask me why I whine daily about lack of ventilation in commercial buildings as a Covid-19 risk, but entertain heat pumps that do not exchange air.

 

[David_Cary]

I have all-electric (except cooking - don't kill me) but I can't help but think that I would be a lot closer to off-grid if I heated with gas.

When driving less, I can make it to zeroed out electricity except Dec and Jan. The big issue with solar is Dec and Jan in much of the US. Heating with NG would help that somewhat. Since the electricity is still generated mostly with NG, using a bit of NG at home isn't all that bad.

I know the pitfalls with that - just looking at my personal situation. If net metering goes away though and I get batteries, it would increase the incentive to go off-grid which would save me $200 a year. And, yes, it would have been a lot easier and cost effective to go without NG and save $130 a year.

 

[iPlug]

Would argue that having piped NG is still being on-grid.

For most Americans, their heating energy consumption is > cooling energy consumption.

Some may have goals of going off grid, but from a standpoint of maximizing renewables and lowering costs, the grid is likely an ally. Understandably, the utility may not pass on cost savings to the consumer.

 

[SageBrush]

For most Americans, their heating energy consumption is > cooling energy consumption.

That is true for me, but I would not guessed it is true nationwide. What data are you relying on ?

And a second question, what energy units and conversions are taken into account ? It gets tricky if electricity is sourced from fossils since the conversion is not transparent

 

[iPlug]

That is true for me, but I would not guessed it is true nationwide. What data are you relying on ?...

Unfortunately I haven’t bookmarked sources over the years but recall seeing data from the EIA among other places.

This (old, pre-heat pump) article from NPR has some leads:

...according to researchers at National Geographic's The Green Guide, you will probably consume more energy heating your home than cooling it.

In colder states, heating can account for up to two-thirds of your annual energy bills, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA). And, on average, heating an American home with natural gas produces about 6,400 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2, a major warming gas). Use electricity, and CO2 emissions average about 4,700 pounds. In a cold state like Minnesota, the numbers jump to 8,000 pounds of CO2 for natural gas and 9,900 pounds for electric heat.

In hot parts of the country, the calculation changes: Air conditioners become the bigger energy users. A typical centrally air conditioned home in Florida, for instance, produces about 6,600 pounds of CO2.​

The Energy Costs of Cooling and Heating a Home


More recent data from EIA:
Use of energy in homes - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[nwdiver]

I have all-electric (except cooking - don't kill me) but I can't help but think that I would be a lot closer to off-grid if I heated with gas.

When driving less, I can make it to zeroed out electricity except Dec and Jan. The big issue with solar is Dec and Jan in much of the US. Heating with NG would help that somewhat. Since the electricity is still generated mostly with NG, using a bit of NG at home isn't all that bad.

I know the pitfalls with that - just looking at my personal situation. If net metering goes away though and I get batteries, it would increase the incentive to go off-grid which would save me $200 a year. And, yes, it would have been a lot easier and cost effective to go without NG and save $130 a year.

I'm 100% electric and effectively off-grid. Just get heat pumps. An electric stove isn't that big of a load.

 

[iPlug]

...For most Americans, their heating energy consumption is > cooling energy consumption...

Here in Rocklin we're right on the border between zones 3 and 4 - dry hot summers and cool/humid (but not frigid) winters. Only a few days a year where temps < 32ºF briefly in the predawn hours. Don't recall any temps < 25ºF in the 9 years we have lived here.

Last year we used 1347 kWh to cool and 1871 kWh to heat our house with the highest available HSPF residential central ducted heat pump. That's almost 40% more energy to heat the house than cool it.

Suspect Zones 1 and 2 cooling energy consumption is > heating energy consumption.

...It gets tricky if electricity is sourced from fossils since the conversion is not transparent

Yeah, apples to apples is challenging, would need a large pool of folks like our situation who are 100% on heat pump. Potentially lots of accounting wiggle room when comparing different electricity sources with wells to appliance.

 

[vbaker]

'Fairly clean' is in the eyes of the breather I suppose.

One thing I am struggling with in my plans to convert my home to all electric is interior air quality. It is not the change to electric per se, but the transition from open to closed windows. I don't think I'll be happy until I integrate heat exchangers into my home. My wife, ever ready to point out discrepancies in my thinking, likes to ask me why I whine daily about lack of ventilation in commercial buildings as a Covid-19 risk, but entertain heat pumps that do not exchange air.

In 2005 I opted for a Dutchwest reburner that was only 80% efficient at burning all of the bio-gas (mostly smoke) released in a fire. The ones with titanium catalysts were 95% efficient, but the catalysts were expensive to replace.

15 years later and several broken fire bricks replaced, I think it is still better than 70% efficient, and that roar when you close the damper to force the burnable gasses down through the coals is pretty awesome. Still emits CO2, but I think overall it is net neutral since the trees were laying dead in my woods and would have been eventually emitting a lot more greenhouse gasses including methane.

 

[vbaker]

I expect gas companies to fight back even more fiercely. We also need a cultural shift when it comes to gas cooking. It has this misplaced aura of superiority over electric when all it really does is contaminate the air in your home. The Gas Company in NM successfully negotiated with Xcel to end Xcel's practice of discounting electric rates for all-electric homes.

I know late is better than never but it's infuriating that we're still building homes with gas lines when that practice should have ended ~20 years ago in most of the country. Heat pumps work great. Unless you live in an area that sees <0F temperatures >10 days a years having a gas line run into your home is insane



I think wood stoves can still play a role, just not as a primary source of heating. My home in WA has a wood stove. I would use the heat pump ~95% of the time then use the wood stove on the rare occasion that it's ~20F outside and the heat pump is struggling or if there's a power outage. Modern wood stove burn fairly clean.

The only reason we keep the dual-fuel propane/electric range is the recovery energy needed to maintain the heat for a strong sear on a good steak. And yes, I know beef production is also very bad for the environment due to the inefficiencies of raising cattle, but humans ain't at the top of the food chain because of eating kale. (no offense to vegans, more power to you if you can do it)

 

[nwdiver]

The only reason we keep the dual-fuel propane/electric range is the recovery energy needed to maintain the heat for a strong sear on a good steak. And yes, I know beef production is also very bad for the environment due to the inefficiencies of raising cattle, but humans ain't at the top of the food chain because of eating kale. (no offense to vegans, more power to you if you can do it)

Back in my steak eating days I was able to sear a steak on an electric stove just fine...

 

[iPlug]

I have all-electric (except cooking - don't kill me)...

The only reason we keep the dual-fuel propane/electric range is the recovery energy needed to maintain the heat for a strong sear on a good steak...

Induction (electric) ranges are excellent. We upgraded a couple years ago from NG. It equals or outperforms in all areas. Because energy transfer is much higher than NG and electric resistance, one can sear a steak beyond desired.

Other benefits of induction over NG/propane and electric resistance:
-heats much more quickly
-more precise temperature control
-much easier clean up (smooth cooktop gets much less warm; just wipe down; we've had no problems with burnt on or stuck on food; our NG range was a perpetual mess and burnt on stuff that would never come off)
-uses less energy (energy transferred directly to cookware and not to range top; generates much less residual heat)
-safer/lower burn risk (range top significantly less hot as only gets hot from backfeed from directly heated cookware)

 

[SageBrush]

Last year we used 1347 kWh to cool and 1871 kWh to heat our house with the highest available HSPF residential central ducted heat pump. That's almost 40% more energy to heat the house than cool it.

Therein lies the tricky part. I think it is generally true that heat pumps are about 2x more efficient in the cooling season than the heating season. That flips your conclusion if heating is from NG combustion at home

 

[iPlug]

Therein lies the tricky part. I think it is generally true that heat pumps are about 2x more efficient in the cooling season than the heating season. That flips your conclusion if heating is from NG combustion at home

I read the data differently - looks to still hold true for heating with NG. Let me know what you are seeing that I am not.

As above - post #8, EIA says home energy consumption is 43% heating and 8% air conditioning as a percent of all home energy site consumption. They do acknowledge this excludes loss in generation and delivery. As the link notes, home electricity use accounted for 44% of household energy consumption while natural gas accounted for 43% of residential sector energy use. The 5.4x site consumed energy difference in heating > cooling doesn't appear to leave enough best/worst case scenario accounting room that I can see an alternate conclusion.

In our case, we were able to test the NG home combustion scenario. About 3 years ago before we upgraded from NG for heating to heat pump, we were using a few hundred NG therms/yr for heating purposes. At 29.3 kWh/therm, last year we used only 64 therm equivalents for heat pump heating.

(side note; I think our heat pump is ~75% as efficient in heating mode compared to cooling when doing HSPF->COP and SEER->COP conversions)

 

[SageBrush]

As above - post #8, EIA says home energy consumption is 43% heating and 8% air conditioning as a percent of all home energy site consumption. They do acknowledge this excludes loss in generation and delivery. As the link notes, home electricity use accounted for 44% of household energy consumption while natural gas accounted for 43% of residential sector energy use. The 5.4x site consumed energy difference in heating > cooling doesn't appear to leave enough best/worst case scenario accounting room that I can see an alternate conclusion.

I have not looked at post #8 -- I will later

My point is that the accounting as you describe it is adding apples and oranges because a typical heating btu is direct combustion whereas a home kWh is ~ 2.5 kWh combusted at a central power plant.

I decided to look at this question by googling national average heating and cooling degree days. This is a geographic answer and does take population dispersion into account. There are ~ 1500 CDD and ~ 4,000 HDD.

The ~ 3x COP of AC cancels out the ~ 2.5x inefficiency of NG conversion into electricity so I come to your conclusion that overall there is quite a bit more heating than cooling.

 

[K2500Z71]

Back in my steak eating days I was able to sear a steak on an electric stove just fine...

I’ll add that I’ve been doing Sous Vide steaks for several years and when you sear, there’s no difference between electric or gas. Nothing beats Sous Vide for steak

 

[vbaker]

Induction (electric) ranges are excellent. We upgraded a couple years ago from NG. It equals or outperforms in all areas. Because energy transfer is much higher than NG and electric resistance, one can sear a steak beyond desired.

Other benefits of induction over NG/propane and electric resistance:
-heats much more quickly
-more precise temperature control
-much easier clean up (smooth cooktop gets much less warm; just wipe down; we've had no problems with burnt on or stuck on food; our NG range was a perpetual mess and burnt on stuff that would never come off)
-uses less energy (energy transferred directly to cookware and not to range top; generates much less residual heat)
-safer/lower burn risk (range top significantly less hot as only gets hot from backfeed from directly heated cookware)

Please don't let the wife know... We never spoke, right?

Seriously, we only use cast iron now so it would work well for us and we have mentioned it. But I am still fighting the battle of keeping our 1992 living room set because it is in great shape, I don't need to fight the good fight on another unnecessary large consumer good.

Maybe in 2 years when we get the south-facing addition built and solar installed...

 

[vbaker]

I read the data differently - looks to still hold true for heating with NG. Let me know what you are seeing that I am not.

As above - post #8, EIA says home energy consumption is 43% heating and 8% air conditioning as a percent of all home energy site consumption. They do acknowledge this excludes loss in generation and delivery. As the link notes, home electricity use accounted for 44% of household energy consumption while natural gas accounted for 43% of residential sector energy use. The 5.4x site consumed energy difference in heating > cooling doesn't appear to leave enough best/worst case scenario accounting room that I can see an alternate conclusion.

In our case, we were able to test the NG home combustion scenario. About 3 years ago before we upgraded from NG for heating to heat pump, we were using a few hundred NG therms/yr for heating purposes. At 29.3 kWh/therm, last year we used only 64 therm equivalents for heat pump heating.

(side note; I think our heat pump is ~75% as efficient in heating mode compared to cooling when doing HSPF->COP and SEER->COP conversions)

Excellent, I was getting ready to mention the SEER and EER, two things that have me thinking I may give up my propane furnace.

"Convert EER To SEER Rating (Calculator + Chart) | LearnMetrics" has good info on how to figure it and an understanding why the SEER is important.