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Fisker Karma
- Thread starter vfx
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- Electric Vehicles fail Fisker karma
This has been said many times before on this thread I'm sure but the price kills it for me. It's just that you know the price is about 50% to 40% higher then it has to be!!! If they made these in house I have to assume that they could get the price way down! I know a lot of people who own a Karma love their cars but I wouldn't be able to take that leap to even get that far! Ok not you guys can tell me why I'm wrong :biggrin:
I would be interested to know 2 things tho:
Did they fix their issues with the center infotainment/control screen? (Horrible attempt at explaining it but you know what I'm talking about)
Why not wait for a redesigned Roadster? Hint: acceptable answers include power-train differences, wait time and styling
I would be interested to know 2 things tho:
Did they fix their issues with the center infotainment/control screen? (Horrible attempt at explaining it but you know what I'm talking about)
Why not wait for a redesigned Roadster? Hint: acceptable answers include power-train differences, wait time and styling
dennis
Model S Plaid
My Model S Signature Performance cost exactly $3800 less than my Fisker Karma EcoSport. They are "comparably equipped", i.e. Leather/Metallic Paint/Nav/Premium Sound/etc., except that the Karma comes with parking sensors and electrically folding side mirrors.
I heard from a source that Valmet assembles the Karma for approximately $5500 per vehicle, although I have no way of verifying that number. Not sure where you get your 40%-50% number, but it is way off.
The Command Center has been 'fixed' - make no mistake, it isn't nearly as iPad like as the Model S. Different beast. That said, they are releasing an updated software version which will make the Command Center faster, improve some menu layouts, enhance contrast for the screens and restore the daytime/nightime themes for the displays. That is due out in the next month (free for all current owners).
Regarding the roadster question, my answer can be broken down into three parts: (1) the new roadster isn't due out until 2017 - that is a LONG time to wait and I'm a naturally impatient person; (2) EVer is fundamental to me right now, since batteries are still too heavy/bulky and still have relatively slow charging times - I want my car to conform to my life, not vice versa and (3) styling/emotional appeal - the Model S isn't an ugly car but it is forgettable - I've confused it with many Chryslers on the road (the back ends are nearly identical!) and the Roadster well, never liked Lotus' styling. So until I see Franz break out of the banality mode, a Tesla purchase will mean compromising about what I love most about cars - that emotional connection!
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I had heard that the production cost was closer to $85K (and that dealer invoice was more like $90K)...but maybe those are old/unreliable numbers.
This, to me, is Fisker's biggest selling point. For the masses to adopt, it needs to be painless. Sure, there's lots of calculating and planning you can do, but seriously, how many people want to add that to their list of things to worry about?
Design is debatable. Even in the S I get people thumbing up and riding along side me -- which, is honestly odd, since to me the S is a handsome car, but not something to chase. I'm not one for attention, so buying a Karma for a more head turning experience is low on my list.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
In the past 5 years, I've never driven further than 200 miles in a single day. Not once. The longest trip (Seattle to Portland) still required a 20 min rest stop for my wife. A Model S conforms to my life perfectly.
Different strokes for different folks. As I'm a native LA kid, driving has and always will be in my blood. When I'm in LA, I average about 300 miles or so in a given weekend. There have been more than a few occasions of impromptu day trips to San Diego and Santa Barbara, the former of which is a good 110 miles each way, plus driving in and around SD. For me, its nice to not have to worry about where I can charge up or how I will need to alter my drive to accommodate a charging station (and the attendant waiting time involved). For others, like my parents for example, who never drive more than 100 miles in an entire week, EVs don't require much compromise.
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Yes - check all the articles and Instagram /FB comments, esp right around the time the Atlantic was released. I've been stopped at least once almost every weekend I've driven my Karma asking me what I do (including once by the cops at a Greek take out place - they left, saw the car parked outside, came back in to the restaurant, and since I was the only one there, they asked me if it was my car, then they started asking me if I was 'famous' and if he had "seen me in anything"... or "are you a doctor or something" ...it was pretty awkward and then, on their way back to their police car, one of them said he'd overlook my front tinted windows because I could probably afford to fight the ticket/etc).
Also, AnOutsider, the sexy/emotional appeal of the Karma isn't so much about the attention it draws (rather that's a consequence/side effect of it) - it really is how it makes the driver excited/giddy as you open your garage and get ready to drive it. By far the coolest gadget I've ever owned that gives me that feeling (the iPhone did for exactly one week).
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I know. I used to take long trips with no stops, but my wife is from Portugal and absolutely refuses to sit in the car for longer than 2.5 hours without a nice break (seems to be a European thing, shorter distances to drive and high speed rail), plus the kids hate it too. So I'm going to be stuck driving like this EV or no. My dad on the other hand, will regularly do 1200 miles in a single day with only stops for gas. But he has 4 cars and $0.03/kWh power so having a LEAF would actually make economic sense but he'll never be convinced.
IDK heard it was pretty bad from almost all the reviews but fixed is fixed i guess
The Fisker weighs 5,300 lbs but your going to call the Model S fat? Or do you mean just batteries tech in general? Either way, glass houses and such.
That's more around what I expected. $5,550? In that case no one would make their own cars!! Obviously, I don't know the actual number I just assumed the same logic from the Roadster would apply here too. My 40% reduction was to say that other then styling it's not fundamentally different then the Cadillac ELR, Could be wrong and experience would say I am but with the ELR price around mid $50,000 to $70,000 range, the Fisker looks ATLEAST $30,000 over-priced.
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The Command Center works as it was designed to. It will never be an Ipad, it was never designed with that in mind (despite what Henrik Biden Fisker says in a couple of interviews). The Command Center is faster now, and should be faster with the March update. It doesn't crash ever and does exactly what it was meant to do. No you can't surf the web on it, nor do the maps on the Nav look particularly attractive. But c'est la vie.
Regarding the weight, the Karma is indeed thicker around the hips and weighs as you pointed out 5,300 lbs (about 600 lbs more than the Model S 85kwh at 4,700lbs). But that was not the point of my comment - my point was that at 5,300 lbs, the Karma has UNLIMITED range - that is, it can take advantage of the existing gas infrastructure which is ubiquitous. The Model S, at present, has a realistic range of 210-240 miles and for more than that, you need to be on a Supercharger route, ginger your car at low speed and without heating/cooling, and have about an hour to spare (or more - the comments JB made in a recent CNN article said that on weekends, the Harris Ranch Supercharger has an average of 6 Model S' waiting in line for the single connector!). When I was in college nearly a decade ago, I would frequently make the drive from the Bay Area down to LA in about 5.5 hours or so, stopping quickly for gas. In the Model S, as Dennis and a few others have pointed out, that trip would take more like 8 hours. In my Karma, that trip would take 5.5 hours (even with the radio blasting, the heat on, traveling at 75mph++). I don't have to change the way I drive my car, nor change my driving patterns (the thought of waiting an hour or two in line for a charger, then another hour to charge ... that's basically a dealbreaker). So back on topic, my point is that when EVs realistically offer say 400 miles+ of realistic, real world range per charge and/or can recharge in the same time it takes for me to fill up, that's when EVers and ICEs will be made fully obsolete. Until then, its EVer all the way (again, your mileage may vary). Again, the beauty of the EVer is that if you drive less than (realistically)40-45 miles per day, you can drive in pure EV mode - using zero gas. If you have an impromptu trip or you forgot to plug-in overnight, you can fret not - because you have Plan B ready to go (ie gas). Its all about flexibility and freedom.
Lastly, tastes do vary, but I have yet to meet someone who isn't stunned by the Karma's looks. In photos, its impressive, but in person it is stunning. To say that the Karma and the ELR look like they should be in the price category is to say that a Vantage and Toyota FRS are in the same category (the Vantage gets up to 60 in about 5.2s, and the FRS in about 6.2s, the FRS has better fuel economy). The first few weeks I had my Karma, people had asked what new Ferrari/Aston/Maserati this was and had guessed the car cost upwards of $200K. That was before they knew anything about the car (that it was electric, brand new car co, etc).
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Looks are a matter of opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I think the Karma is attractive overall but a bit over-the-top. Oddly I've found it less appealing in person than in photos. Go figure.
I think the Karma is attractive overall but a bit over-the-top. Oddly I've found it less appealing in person than in photos. Go figure.
Indeed.
Nice to meet you - the first one who's said that!
Anyhow, to each their own. A couple buddies of mine bought an RX over a Q5 - thought it looked better! Go figure.
dennis
Model S Plaid
You had stated that it could be $30K-$40K cheaper if they built it in house. I was passing along what I heard they paid Valmet for assembly. I have also heard the $85K cost of goods for the Karma that @SoCalGuy stated.
Most of the cost of an automobile is in its parts, not its assembly. Much of the Model S is not built in house, since my Monroney sticker says 45% of its parts content is non-U.S., and the only Tesla factory is in CA.
The car to compare to the ELR is the Fisker Atlantic, also targetted at the $50K-$70K price range.
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gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Isn't that 45% mostly the Panasonic batteries from Japan? Assembly of those into the battery pack and pretty much everything else (including the on-site seat assembly by a vendor) is done at the Fremont factory from all accounts.
Dealbreaker for you. Those few hours rest stopping work out fine for families that want to take breaks. And what college student would not want to do the LA SF run for free? Or maybe a driver wants to not add to the problems of national security or fill the breathable air with more carbon? Lot's of reasons why a few hours added to the very occasional trip is not a big deal.
Ultimately that's where we want to get to. But right now, we do not have the infrastructure. To eliminate range anxiety, at least in California, you need to put in Superchargers every 100 miles along the 5, 101 and at least one route between LA/SD - and these should have at least 10+ connectors, especially as the MS becomes more common. If fast charging stations were as common as gas stations, we wouldn't have this discussion. The problem is we aren't there yet.
Also, bear in mind that most electricity in America doesn't come from emission free renewables. California and a few other states have a relatively green mix, but others don't - some states like Alaska and Texas have poorer plant to wheel life cycle emissions for EVs than comparable well-to-wheel emissions for gas-powered hybrids (Time had an analysis on this a year or so ago in the context of the Volt and Pop Mechanics did a ranking in their review of the Karma).
Again, it comes down to freedom and flexibility. If you use the Karma as your daily driver, you have the exact same benefits as a Model S owner - pure EV driving for 40-45 miles. On the occasion that some drivers take roadtrips or have emergencies where they need to go farther, they have the ability to use an alternative fuel - that is, gasoline, that is quick and easy to find. That is the beauty of the EVer paradigm. In my mind, if I were CEO of GM or Ford, I'd be spending my dollars to create a bespoke gas-powered range extender box (rather than repurpose an existing ICE to the task) that could operate much more efficiently than what we have on the market now ('rex' to use the BMW term, don't really have to worry about variable load like a ICE-mated to a transmission/gearbox for motion does - a smart setup would have a single load rex that uses a super/ultracapacitor and battery combo as a buffer for over/under generation of power, but I digress... a purpose-built rex could offer greater efficiency than the 30-35% we see in the current mix, plus have the advantages of being smaller/lighter, better NVH profile, etc). Sorry for the ramble.
EDIT: One other thing I wanted to say is that neither the Karma nor the Model S are as efficient as they could be. I've always shared the view of Amory Lovins and Lotus founder Colin Chapman in that one simple and effective way to improve auto efficiency is to reduce weight. The Karma weighs 5,300lbs and the Model S weighs 4,700 lbs - all this weight to move really 200-600 lbs of people matter. Think about that - we waste nearly 90-95% of the used energy (and more like 97-99% if you consider full energy cost) in moving all the stuff of a car around. In rough terms (let's ignore aerodynamics for the time being), if we can cut the weight of a car in half, we could double the fuel economy of a car. If we could have electric cars or ICE powered cars that weighed 1,500lbs instead of 3x that, we could see fuel efficiency double or triple with little advancement in engine/motor tech. (I know I'm oversimplifying this, but directionally this is correct).
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It's called gas anxiety and you don't have it (yet). I never said that driving electric was carbon free but it certainly is less unless you are in one of the few states that are 100% coal. And historically nearly 40 percent of EV purchasers get solar as the cost savings are indisputable.
dennis
Model S Plaid
I doubt if the battery cells represent 45% of the parts cost. There's the Mercedes parts like the steering column/stalk/side view mirror mechanism, the electric motor is most likely from China, who knows what else. The modern automobile is assembled from spec'd parts from a myriad of suppliers.
That's like saying a bicycle and an EV have the same benefits of pure emissionless driving for 40-45 miles. No, they are dramatically different driving experience and there's a whole different storage/transport opportunity in S.
They're not even close much less "exact same".
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Sure, you could also just strip out the human safety factor if weight is king. Thanks, but no thanks.
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