Well Fisker getting mostly bought out (by the Chinese or whomever) gives them a chance to actually pay back that loan. If they go bankrupt, then that loan will be a loss to the tax payers.
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Fisker Karma
- Thread starter vfx
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- Electric Vehicles fail Fisker karma
I drive a Karma and took a test drive in a Model S last week. What is amazing is that my conclusions are the opposite of yours. And I've been driving the Karma since April.
The driver's position is nice and not cramped, but the rear seats definitely are. An adult cannot sit there. Even for my kids the space is hardly big enough, and they can't put their feet anywhere (there is no space under the front seats).
It does feels heavy and solid, but after driving it for many months that becomes less pleasant. The Model S feels lighter and nimbler. The Karma is not good in turns at low speed, because it is so heavy and because it has such a big wheel base. The front wheels are too far forward, which makes turning problematic, especially in cramped spaces. The tires tend to rub from friction in tight turns at slow speed.
Agree, they executed this very well.
Acceleration from 0 is decent, although the Model S Performance (or even the normal 85 kwh and 60 kwh versions) would completely destroy it in a drag race. The problem with the Karma is accelerating at highway speeds; sometimes it has hardly any power left for decent overtaking.
Well, not in my car! The engine is noisy. Driving in Stealth Mode is a huge difference with driving in Sport Mode: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide is its nickname. A Volt is much better (I tested an Ampera, the European version of the Volt and that engine was much smoother than the Karma's).
I absolutely love the design of my Karma, but it is too heavy, too big, too cramped in the back (and trunk) and too noisy in Sport Mode, the control center is sluggish and not functioning well (especially when compared to the Model S) and there are too many problems with the build quality.
And then there is the range, which falls far short of what was projected. The EPA tested it at 32 miles on the battery (compared to 50 miles predicted by Fisker) and that is what I also get on average. This would be the same as if the EPA had tested the Model S at 192 miles versus the 300 miles Tesla predicted (the EPA actually tested it at 265 miles).
I hope the Atlantic, if it ever sees the light of day, will be better executed.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
I think that Fisker should redesign the Karma improving these features.
Right_Said_Fred,
It doesn't sound like your conclusions are much different than mine. I have also driven the Model S, and the Karma does not come close to it. I did not try the Karma's back seat or trunk, but they do look tiny. I did not notice the engine noise as much as you; probably bad hearing on my part. My main conclusion is the Karma was much better than I expected, and it does have appeal.
However, given $100k to buy a car, the Model S clearly would be more enjoyable than ANY other car.
GSP
It doesn't sound like your conclusions are much different than mine. I have also driven the Model S, and the Karma does not come close to it. I did not try the Karma's back seat or trunk, but they do look tiny. I did not notice the engine noise as much as you; probably bad hearing on my part. My main conclusion is the Karma was much better than I expected, and it does have appeal.
However, given $100k to buy a car, the Model S clearly would be more enjoyable than ANY other car.
GSP
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In hindsight - reading your and my posts again - we do come to many of the same conclusions. My frustrations with the car are mainly the things you didn't or couldn't test yet: low speed turning, acceleration at highway speeds, rear passenger space, trunk space, build quality, technical issues, functions of control screen not working, and so on.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
Latest update on Fisker's potential sale. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/18/us-china-auto-idUSBRE91H05G20130218
Zzzz...
Member
While I wish Fisker to survive, I really wondering, would it make more sense to invest those 200 -300 millions $$$ into new startup? And develop more efficient platform from scratch, like grab high energy dense LiCoO2 cells instead of A123 LiFePO4, get Atkinson cycle ICE instead of conventional one, use induction motor etc... The platform could be way faster, more lightweight and more fuel efficient... And Musk claimed that cost of developing Model S platform was $300M.
And there would be no need to deal with all bad publicity Fisker already received (QC problems, firers etc.).
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I think that it's too late in the game for a startup to survive. Fisker barely has a chance considering they haven't produced a new car in over 6 months and they don't seem to be suffering from a supply shortage of any kind.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
On the contrary I think that a new startup is needed for Fisker. This way Fisker could develop a better power train that could be used also for Atlantic.
A motto says: "It's never too late"
dennis
Model S Plaid
While I agree with you that the Karma front tires scrub turning at very low speeds (< 10mph), after driving the Karma for a year and the Model S for 4 months I prefer the handling of the Karma. Two specific traits come to mind:
1) The Model S always feels like it is understeering, while the Karma steering feels neutral at turn-in and does not understeer until you approach the cornering limits of the car. A good place to experience the difference in feel between the two cars is on a freeway cloverleaf.
2) Changing lanes at high speeds in the Model S does not feel secure. There was a long thread on this right after 4.2 came out. I duplicated this test in the Karma at 85-90 mph and it was rock solid.
Driving the Karma at 75mph on the freeway I get 32-35 miles per charge, which equates to 65-70% of the 50 miles claimed by Fisker. Driving my MSP at 75mph on the freeway, I get 210 miles of range, or 70% of the miles claimed by Tesla. So for me the manufacturer claims of mileage are equally overblown because they rely on ideal rather than real world conditions.
I agree with you about the cramped back seat and trunk of the Karma - I wish both were bigger, and I really like the interior room and cargo carrying capacity of the Model S. But I wish the Model S had more dramatic styling and a less austere interior. I guess the bottom line for me is that they are both good cars with unique limitations and I am lucky to get to drive both of them.
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I just doubt that a new startup could come to market from scratch with a better PHEV than what GM and the others are starting to offer. When Tesla started, nobody cared. After the Roadster built brand recognition, some others made PHEVs or short range EVs, but really Model S doesn't have an EV competitor. Now that Nissan and BMW and GM are moving into the premium space for EVs and PHEVs, I don't see how a startup could compete with that unless they had some new game changing technology which Fisker doesn't. Starting from scratch would probably result in a better Atlantic, but I can see an established brand getting there first.
I asked Henrik on face book this question and this was his reply...
Me: Henrik, can you give your teams decision to build karma four door instead of building a coupe? The cars limited room could of been enhanced and you coud of giving better ingress - egress as well as more room behind the front seats for storage? ...
Henrik Fisker: ... the Fisker Karma is a 4-door sports coupe unique in the market place, especially since it has a sustainable DNA. Regarding design: Automakers make a choice to sacrifice beauty and design for space, and an extreme example is a minivan, while other automakers sacrifice all the space for pure beauty for example a small 2-seater sports couple. The Fisker Karma offers beautiful design, and is essentially a coupe with 2 extra rear doors for more convenient use of the rear space. It is not meant to be a large full sized sedan. Fisker will explore other options in the future with different models.
Yesterday at 6:51pm · Like · 2
Attempting to redefine words?
Coupé - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
What's next, a "2 door SUV" that is "best in class" for acceleration?
Not to spilt hairs, but many sports coupe do seat 4, Maserati gran tourismo, BMW 650, Cadillac CTS , come to mind , so there is no redefinition ... That was this gist of my suggestion -I was trying to make the point that had the Fisker been 2door, more people would find its space in the rear more acceptable. Looks like Henrik followed the Aston Martin Rapide instead.
Note the underlined in my prior post. My point wasn't about the seating, it was about the doors.
And Webster's and I agree with you on the seating, hence "often" in the definition.
dennis
Model S Plaid
From the Mercedes Benz USA page on the CLS:
The original 4-passenger, 4-door coupe delivers a motoring experience that can be shared by all aboard, but with no other automobile.
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehic...=0DAC874F444F43E8BE7C0B8F29FEE769|12204425007
Mercedes introduced the CLS "4 door coupe" in 2004...
I'd more question the "sports" part. Always irks me. What's sporty about the Karma? Also, Henrik pretty much confirms form over function. "I wanted it to be PREEEEETTYY!"
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