good samaritan shot dead by driver stranded snow

[Xenoilphobe]

Well argued points but as an example I'm not sure I would describe the UK as a police state.
Not saying that we don't have our problems here either.
Good point - would you agree that George Orwell would recognize London - based on the heavy public surveillance? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6108496.stm Would you say the UK is a compromised state - with the heavy influx of radicalized immigrants?

Comparing the (mostly) desperately unfortunate people of Syria with the US is also a bit of a stretch, as in you are comparing a 1st world democracy with a 2nd? world dictatorship.
Maturity and stability of government is part of the equation.

Syria was relatively stable and mature until this environmental disaster enabled the civil war http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innov...me-for-the-conflict-in-syria-72513729/?no-ist

Another state/country that embraces armed civilians is Switzerland.
I know little of the detail of how this works for them, but certainly we hear much less in the way of tragic shootings, maybe they are just smaller, but also maybe there are lessons for us all from there.

here is one contributing factor on why it works in Switzerland - discipline and mandatory military service http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/europe/swiss-vote-to-keep-mandatory-army-service.html?_r=0

*could* - that is if he was prepared for it - which I rather doubt would be the case.
In any event no guns would equal no fatalities, any guns would lead to one or more fatalities.

We will never know - having assisted folks who are in trouble on the road - this will definitely change how I approach them in the future.

We know little of the assailant, he could have been rotten to the core and deserving of everything the law can throw at him, or he could just have been a stupid drunk family guy himself, embarrassed he'd got his car stuck and panicked when he heard the word police. Killing all the stupid drunks in the US and the UK for that matter sure would thin the population out a bit, in fact having been stupid drunk at least once in my life you'll probably have to put me on the list too.

Good point - however he had to the option to flee the accident scene - verses killing the young man who was there to assist him.

 

[AudubonB]

Moderator input
Just a very gentle reminder (I wouldn't want to get shot now) that this entire thread deals with one of the very most contentious topics of our age. So far, there have been very few posts that are gratuitous or inflammatory, but here is a plea from the moderator's dugout, or the secret bunker, or our armored fortress (I'm enjoined from being any more specific) to keep all posts even-tempered, on topic, and apolitical.

A special call-out to jerry33 about the very interesting proscription of lawyers from being members of Congress for the first seven or so decades of this country's history.

Thank you in advance, all. Carry on.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Moderator input
Just a very gentle reminder (I wouldn't want to get shot now) that this entire thread deals with one of the very most contentious topics of our age. So far, there have been very few posts that are gratuitous or inflammatory, but here is a plea from the moderator's dugout, or the secret bunker, or our armored fortress (I'm enjoined from being any more specific) to keep all posts even-tempered, on topic, and apolitical.

A special call-out to jerry33 about the very interesting proscription of lawyers from being members of Congress for the first seven or so decades of this country's history.

Thank you in advance, all. Carry on.

Jerry33 does get the top callout for that tidbit of info. I had no idea. He gets the cool fact of the day award!

 

[thx1139]

You're absolutely right regarding world perception vs. reality of the US. I dated a Canadian for years and watched him struggle with his changing perception of Americans as he spent more time here with my friends and family.

For what it's worth, in all my years, I've never once seen a gun drawn in public. Ever.

Never seen one drawn in public either, but almost. This past December we drove up to Madison, WI to see the opening of Star Wars The Force Awakens with my son, who is a student at UW-Madison. On the way home the next morning we had to stop and Supercharge at the Madison Supercharger. It is at a nice mall. So we went inside and did some Christmas shopping while charging. Less then 3 hours later an argument broke out at the mall and a gun was pulled out and shots fired. One person was hit in the leg.

Just saw a story today that at a gun store the owner and son were killed after an argument broke out because a customer didnt want to pay the $25 service charge for looking at a gun for a estimate to fix. This was in Mississippi.

- - - Updated - - -

Another state/country that embraces armed civilians is Switzerland.

Civilians are armed in Switzerland with rigorous training and regulation. You must spend 2 years in the military. You may keep your gun when you leave the service. Buying guns is heavily regulated with strict rules. For instance all transfers of guns between parties requires heavy background checks and the paperwork for the transfer must be kept by both parties for 10 years. Buy ammunition falls under nearly the same rules. You are restricted to purchasing only ammunition for the type of registered fire arm you are permitted for. To have a carry permit you must proof that you have a valid reason to protect oneself, other people or property from a specified danger. Military style assault weapons require that ammunition is kept in the local armory. Some 2000 special militia members are allowed to keep ammunition.

 

[ohmman]

I lived in (supposedly gun-famous) Texas for 20 years, and never once saw a gun pulled in public (or private, for that matter). That's more a testament of where I spent my time, and with whom I spent it, however. I'm certain there are places not far from where I lived that would have made it much more likely for me to see one.

I believe that the pioneering history of this country is a reason that guns continue to have psychological meaning to their owners. The pioneers were required to live independently of others, without much of a supporting society, if any. This mindset of independence runs really deeply in the culture, and manifests itself in many ways. Examples are things like land and mineral rights - having unlimited access to a shared aquifer in the desert (!), the desire to be able to do whatever one wants if they own a property, etc. Politically, hatred of taxes and libertarianism reflect this independent, society-free worldview, as does the country's strong distaste for socialism. And I think guns are a direct extension of the illusion of individual independence for the same reasons.

My opinion, certainly not shared by everyone, is that as our populace has grown and rural areas have lost their dominance in US society, our reliance on large urban societies has negated much of the mechanisms of our pioneer roots. So many things to which we continue to cling likely don't have a long life ahead of them. Socialism is going to slowly become more acceptable, guns are going to become less dominant, and we're going to have to legislate and control our natural resources (to address my examples above).

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Never seen one drawn in public either, but almost. This past December we drove up to Madison, WI to see the opening of Star Wars The Force Awakens with my son, who is a student at UW-Madison. On the way home the next morning we had to stop and Supercharge at the Madison Supercharger. It is at a nice mall. So we went inside and did some Christmas shopping while charging. Less then 3 hours later an argument broke out at the mall and a gun was pulled out and shots fired. One person was hit in the leg.

Just saw a story today that at a gun store the owner and son were killed after an argument broke out because a customer didnt want to pay the $25 service charge for looking at a gun for a estimate to fix. This was in Mississippi.

Darwinism is alive and well. Have you ever been to that area of the country? There is a reason they are ranked 51st in education in the US, inclusive of DC. http://msbusiness.com/2014/01/report-ranks-state-schools-performance-51st-nation/

- - - Updated - - -



Civilians are armed in Switzerland with rigorous training and regulation. You must spend 2 years in the military. You may keep your gun when you leave the service. Buying guns is heavily regulated with strict rules. For instance all transfers of guns between parties requires heavy background checks and the paperwork for the transfer must be kept by both parties for 10 years. Buy ammunition falls under nearly the same rules. You are restricted to purchasing only ammunition for the type of registered fire arm you are permitted for. To have a carry permit you must proof that you have a valid reason to protect oneself, other people or property from a specified danger. Military style assault weapons require that ammunition is kept in the local armory. Some 2000 special militia members are allowed to keep ammunition.

I have no issue with background checks - frankly military service or Law enforcement service would be a good first check for assault rifle ownership.

 

[Tinky]

Ask the French !!!

Only if they are a good person to begin with and follow the laws we make. Bad people will always have access to guns, regardless of the legislation.

I am sure the people that died in France would've liked to of had firearms to defend themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[YoungStranger]

I am sure the people that died in France would've liked to of had firearms to defend themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As you have crossed the Atlantic I feel I can join in. The Paris massacre was an international conspiracy and the biggest single killing incident in Western Europe since the Second World War.
To use this analogy fairly, you would have to measure the number of mass shootings in Europe against the number in the US over the last ten years. But armed civilians would not stop suicide bombers or stop a planned terrorist paramilitary attack.and although a body count feels distasteful there is a truth there.

May I ask whether you take weapons to Rock concerts or to restaurants in anticipation of a terrorist attack?

It is almost certainly true that strict gun control in the UK has starved Jihadi terrorists of weapons (particularly assault rifles). They are around and the U.K. Isn't perfect or completely safe (drug gangs and Irish Republican terrorists are organised enough to arm themselves)but it is very difficult for criminals generally to obtain guns, even handguns. But I still feel that I live in a society that is both free and safe. Don't feel my Liberty has been impinged by not having a gun

 

[Grendal]

I am sure the people that died in France would've liked to of had firearms to defend themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Except that is a myth. Even if someone had a gun it is unlikely that they could have done anything to prevent the tragedy.

Charts: Challenging the Myth That Guns Stop Crime | Mother Jones

Life isn't an action movie and in the heat of these incidents it is incredibly unlikely that a person will be prepared to respond in just the right manner to prevent the incident from happening. It is only in hindsight that you can imagine a scenario where the right person properly armed would be able to prevent such a tragedy. It is statistically more likely that the gun carrying person has their gun stolen (still very rare) than to prevent a criminal act where a gun would be needed. It would probably be a greater chance that the person is shot or harmed by police or bystanders by carrying the weapon than they would be instrumental in preventing a gunman from harming others.

By the way, I too have never seen someone brandishing a firearm in my life including police officers except at a gun range. Twice I have seen someone wearing a firearm that wasn't a policeman.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Having been the victim of a home invasion where the intruder did attempt to kill me - these stats are not necessarily accurate. The "gentleman" who broke into my home had done this 2X before in our neighborhood and had firearms pointed at him in the past and ignored the defenders pleas to stop (as he did when he broke into my home). Twice before the homeowners did not press charges after he was restrained - therefore no charges were filed. (which wouldn't make it into the FBI report you cited above)

In my case I fired two warning shots at the intruder and he continued to advance into my home. We ended up in my back yard doing laps around my pool as he threw cast iron lawn furniture at me - until the police showed up to arrest him. Needless to say - I showed undue restraint - and had the prior combat experience to recognized that he was a low threat (no weapon). If he had been armed - it would have ended very differently - especially as it was 4AM and I wasn't fully awake.

I don't normally conceal carry, or even carry in my car, but this did change our security environment at our home including the addition of non-lethal tools (tasers, bear spray, etc). Once he gets out on parole, this will change. I don't live in the "hood" - my neighborhood has homes that range in price from $800K to over $5M with a great community, but even "safe" communities have criminals.

My advice is just be aware of your surroundings and community - and communicate - thankfully someone had told me about this guy and that helped in my shoot/don't shoot assessment that early morning. If you don't have a weapon - make sure you are fit enough to run if confronted with deadly force.

You don't really have to worry about the threat from individuals - in the 20th century the largest pool of unnatural deaths comes from governments - 262M killed in the last century (this figure excludes warfare!). Democide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide is the largest concern for the coming century.

"The more power a regime has, the more likely people will be killed. This is a major reason for promoting freedom." Rummel concludes that "concentrated political power is the most dangerous thing on earth."

 

[cpa]

I lived in (supposedly gun-famous) Texas for 20 years, and never once saw a gun pulled in public (or private, for that matter). That's more a testament of where I spent my time, and with whom I spent it, however. I'm certain there are places not far from where I lived that would have made it much more likely for me to see one.

I believe that the pioneering history of this country is a reason that guns continue to have psychological meaning to their owners. The pioneers were required to live independently of others, without much of a supporting society, if any. This mindset of independence runs really deeply in the culture, and manifests itself in many ways. Examples are things like land and mineral rights - having unlimited access to a shared aquifer in the desert (!), the desire to be able to do whatever one wants if they own a property, etc. Politically, hatred of taxes and libertarianism reflect this independent, society-free worldview, as does the country's strong distaste for socialism. And I think guns are a direct extension of the illusion of individual independence for the same reasons.

My opinion, certainly not shared by everyone, is that as our populace has grown and rural areas have lost their dominance in US society, our reliance on large urban societies has negated much of the mechanisms of our pioneer roots. So many things to which we continue to cling likely don't have a long life ahead of them. Socialism is going to slowly become more acceptable, guns are going to become less dominant, and we're going to have to legislate and control our natural resources (to address my examples above).

I was formulating a response similar to Ohmman's before I read his eloquent prose. I agree that our free-wheeling survivalist mentality from the westward expansion after the Louisiana Purchase exists today. There were real and perceived threats to survival west of the Mississippi in the 19th century. Law enforcement in the states and territories was sketchy at best, and judges traveled around from location to location on a circuit to hear civil and criminal complaints. B Westerns notwithstanding, the lack of a responsive police presence over the hundreds of thousands of sections across the plains, Rocky Mountains, Great Basin and the far West forced citizens to take matters into their own hands at times.

True story: About 5 years ago, I stopped to get a cup of coffee one morning in the tiny town of Montello, Nevada. It is about 25 miles northeast of Interstate 80 in northeast Nevada. Not much to the community but a UP freight yard; I guess the population is <100. I asked the owner of the bar/coffee shop/mini-mart how often the police come through town. His reply was--never. They know that we can handle things for ourselves. No need to call the sheriff. He pointed to a revolver he had lying on the counter behind the register.

 

[AudubonB]

Montello's Rte 233 / 30 defines in between nowhere and nowhere. Were you lost, cpa? Even in Paxson we get troopers all the time.

In hunting season.

They're wildlife troopers.

In Alaska, they perform double duty as "regular" troopers, as they're not a lot of the other kind. Those we effectively never see....last time was about 8 years ago when those two sons and father got into an on-the-floor brawl with each other, guns included.

 

[cpa]

Montello's Rte 233 / 30 defines in between nowhere and nowhere. Were you lost, cpa? Even in Paxson we get troopers all the time.

In hunting season.

They're wildlife troopers.

In Alaska, they perform double duty as "regular" troopers, as they're not a lot of the other kind. Those we effectively never see....last time was about 8 years ago when those two sons and father got into an on-the-floor brawl with each other, guns included.

I don't get lost. I was traveling to Promontory Point, and I wanted to take the northern route and avoid Salt Lake City.