Has Tesla changed their minds on SCs in urban areas?

[Vawlkus]

I disagree. Have you lived in the denser parts of Toronto or Montreal? You are parking in your apartment/condo lot or garage where you may not be able to put a charger, or on the street. Not being able to charge is a deterrent to being an EV for such folks. I think that is more of an issue than adding more routes that don't get a lot of traffic.

No, I live in Nova Scotia where we’re about 100 kms from a charger at the best of times, and only one Supercharger location (for now ).
You guys can get parking meters that double as chargers, we don’t have the infrastructure to have that extravagance.

 

[CanadaGoose]

Those places can copy Montreal and use the L2 chargers on the street.

I don’t even use the supercharger with no charger in a condo garage.

 

[wayner]

We now know that the Toronto-Libertyville SC will be located in the parking garage of Hotel X on the Exhibition grounds. To me that implies that this site is aimed more at destination travelers than to local residents.

This is the final nail in Tesla's announcement from Sep 2017 that they will be Supercharging Cities putting SCs in urban cores to facilitate charging for people that live in the city - at least as it pertains to Toronto. At that time they announced SCs for Yonge & Eglinton, Libertyville and the Annex. The Yonge & Eg site and the Annex site are now off the list of future sites and the Libertyville site has become Hotel X. I wonder why this change in strategy? It wasn't economically feasible to build these sites?

Tesla's Supercharging cities press release:

Supercharging Cities​

The Tesla Team September 11, 2017

It is extremely important for our customers to be able to easily charge their cars. The most convenient way to charge is to plug in overnight at home, and for most people, this is all that is needed. However, for customers who use their car for long distance travel, there is a growing network of Superchargers located along highways on popular driving routes. We have also installed thousands of Destination Charging connectors at hotels, resorts and restaurants that replicate the home charging experience when you’re away from home. Now, as part of our commitment to make Tesla ownership easy for everyone, including those without immediate access to home or workplace charging, we are expanding our Supercharger network into city centers, starting with downtown Chicago and Boston.
Supercharger stations in urban areas will be installed in convenient locations, including supermarkets, shopping centers and downtown districts, so it’s easy for customers to charge their car in the time it takes to grocery shop or run errands. They also have the same pricing as our existing Superchargers, which is far cheaper than the cost of gasoline.
Superchargers in urban areas have a new post design that occupies less space and is easier to install, making them ideal for dense, highly populated areas. To increase efficiency and support a high volume of cars, these Superchargers have a new architecture that delivers a rapid 72 kilowatts of dedicated power to each car. This means charging speeds are unaffected by Tesla vehicles plugging into adjacent Superchargers, and results in consistent charging times around 45 to 50 minutes for most drivers.
We will continue to expand our charging networks so that Tesla owners always have abundant and reliable access to charging wherever they go.
More information and Supercharging maps are available here.

 

[CanadaGoose]

Don Mills is happening in Q4.

And, if i am going to guess where it is: CF Don Mills or an expansion or improvement of Tesla Lawrence Service Centre.

 

[Vawlkus]

I think Tesla urban deployment is for further down the road. Right now Tesla is still trying to keep pace with expanding the road trip network to handle the demand. IMHO of course. I mean, of the three provinces near me, 1 has no SCs, and another has only one site, while the third has several spread out.

 

[wayner]

Don Mills is happening in Q4.

And, if i am going to guess where it is: CF Don Mills or an expansion or improvement of Tesla Lawrence Service Centre.

Don Mills is more suburban than urban - Don Mills is actually the quintessential post-war suburb. Most people living in that area have driveways and garages.

 

[wayner]

I think Tesla urban deployment is for further down the road. Right now Tesla is still trying to keep pace with expanding the road trip network to handle the demand. IMHO of course. I mean, of the three provinces near me, 1 has no SCs, and another has only one site, while the third has several spread out.

That may be the case, and I know that many Canadians won't really care given the dearth of SCs in some parts of Canada, but Tesla did announce this city strategy and put pins on a map in 2017 - that now appears to have fizzled out.

 

[CanadaGoose]

Yeah, kind of sucks!

But In your ideal scenario, where would Urban Superchargers be placed in Toronto that would fit your need of being somewhere for an hour and provide a local need for condo owners to charge their cars?

CF malls? Yorkdale? A grocery market?

I am having an hard time thinking about it.

The Liberty Village location will at least let condo dwellers have a short distance to get a charge in maybe less than 30 minutes (if they are savvy about it).

 

[wayner]

Good point, but it isn't really my ideal scenario. It is what Tesla actually said in the press release pasted above. I am not sure if there are supermarket options in Libertyville but that would be more convenient as you could get a good charge will doing your grocery shopping. Better than the Hotel as it is unlikely that local folks are going to the Hotel, unless they are going to the restaurant for dinner.

Now, as part of our commitment to make Tesla ownership easy for everyone, including those without immediate access to home or workplace charging, we are expanding our Supercharger network into city centers, starting with downtown Chicago and Boston.
Supercharger stations in urban areas will be installed in convenient locations, including supermarkets, shopping centers and downtown districts, so it’s easy for customers to charge their car in the time it takes to grocery shop or run errands.

 

[mrElbe]

There is a 12 stall charger currently under construction at Toronto Exhibition Place.

 

[wayner]

There is a 12 stall charger currently under construction at Toronto Exhibition Place.

Understood - as I mentioned in post 23 above. But this seems more like a SC for travellers to the hotel than urban residents. If it was for local residents then putting this at the Metro supermarket in Liberty Village would make more sense. And Tesla appears to have cancelled the Supercharger sites at Yonge and Eg and the Annex. That's why I say they seem to have changed their mind since that Sep 2017 press release about Supercharging cities for urban residents.

 

[MD-2000]

So there are two types who need urban chargers - those from out of town on a road trip, and those who live in town, own a Tesla but have nowhere to easily charge it.

For the first ones, a supercharger located somewhere in the city or on the approaches is sufficient. You've come 200km, what's an extra 10 or so to get a charge?

For the locals - we hope people who go out and buy an electric car have some notion how they would charge it. As I charge at home, I have no idea what relying on a pay-to-charge process will cost; my impression is it does not save much more than a gas vehicle at times. (Especially - this is Canada - in winter). There may be the occasional over-zealous early adopter, and there may be those whose living arrangements change and they lose their home charging option when they move. But really, how big is the supercharger-only crowd?

I guess one way to answer that question is to ask how big that segment of owners is in a place like urban California. Is that something people do a lot of?

The other point is that as competition emerges and EV's become more prevalent, non-Tesla options will also become easier to find. I tend now to run across L2 chargers not just in hotels, but in shopping malls, urban parks, assorted businesses with "Do-Good" urges, and even a local school parking lot. We will know we have arrived when Tesla produces a CCS adapter for fast charging, considering ChaDEMO is on the way out. One of Biden's pet projects is to put EV chargers across the USA - he's suggested 50,000 of them. I imagine Canada would then feel the urge to follow suit. Chargers may soon be as ubiquitous as gas stations.

But unlike gas stations, chargers are far simpler and can sit unattended in the corner of some other business and take care of billing automatically; no attendants, no trucks refilling, no leaking tanks or explosion hazards (we hope). It's a financial add-on to attract customers for an existing business. (Note Canadian Tire seeing this opportunity) One thing I think is coming is a glut of suburban real estate as existing gas stations are repurposed to other uses. I already see a decent number of these, usually turned into fast-food drive-thrus.

So short answer - if Tesla puts it off long enough, others will fill the void.

 

[MrShakeHands]

Have a browse through some of the New York City threads. It’s a real eye opener into what urban supercharging looks like. (one big take away I had - none come with free parking)

 

[wayner]

Have a browse through some of the New York City threads. It’s a real eye opener into what urban supercharging looks like. (one big take away I had - none come with free parking)

That's understood that there isn't free parking. We do have some urban SCs in Ontario and you have to pay for parking at the Toronto Eaton Centre, Ottawa Rideau Centre, etc. You can't offer free parking in cities where parking is expensive or it will be abused.

But I go back to the main point of this thread. Has Tesla abandoned their city charging strategy that they announced a few years ago? They do appear to have abandoned two urban sites in Toronto.

 

[Vawlkus]

But I go back to the main point of this thread. Has Tesla abandoned their city charging strategy that they announced a few years ago? They do appear to have abandoned two urban sites in Toronto.

Have they started building sites, and stopped? If not, they haven’t abandoned anything. They might just have lost the permit, had the landowner back out, etc. Too many variables we cannot and do not know.

I’d be more inclined to think Tesla might have found an issue with the design of the urban chargers, or are having trouble producing them. I know their East coast factory where they build the SC hardware has had trouble maintaining their workforce quotas. Given the number of V3 sites being built out right now, I could see the urban assembly line being idled while they focus on V3’s instead. *shrug*

 

[menaknow]

I’m hoping it was just a pandemic resourcing issue.
I am still looking forward for the SC at Square One

Would make my shopping so much easier.

 

[wayner]

Have they started building sites, and stopped? If not, they haven’t abandoned anything. They might just have lost the permit, had the landowner back out, etc. Too many variables we cannot and do not know.

I’d be more inclined to think Tesla might have found an issue with the design of the urban chargers, or are having trouble producing them. I know their East coast factory where they build the SC hardware has had trouble maintaining their workforce quotas. Given the number of V3 sites being built out right now, I could see the urban assembly line being idled while they focus on V3’s instead. *shrug*

They didn't start sites and stop, but they announced two sites within Toronto that have now disappeared from the map. But this is what they said in 2017 in their announcement entitled "Supercharging Cities" (see post 23 above):

Now, as part of our commitment to make Tesla ownership easy for everyone, including those without immediate access to home or workplace charging, we are expanding our Supercharger network into city centers, starting with downtown Chicago and Boston.
Supercharger stations in urban areas will be installed in convenient locations, including supermarkets, shopping centers and downtown districts, so it’s easy for customers to charge their car in the time it takes to grocery shop or run errands. They also have the same pricing as our existing Superchargers, which is far cheaper than the cost of gasoline.

This is what has been abandoned, at least for Toronto, as two urban sites (Yonge & Eg and the Annex) have been cancelled and the Liberty Village site is now at a hotel which is more convenient for long distance drivers. If it was to be convenient for locals it would have been at a supermarket, as they alluded to in their press release, and there is a Metro Supermarket in Liberty Village.

Maybe they are having trouble with the urban style chargers, but end users don't care so much about the type of charger.

 

[wayner]

I’m hoping it was just a pandemic resourcing issue.
I am still looking forward for the SC at Square One

Would make my shopping so much easier.

Agreed, but was it ever confirmed that the site was at Square One? Tesla tended to put the pins on the maps at the location of city hall. In Miss that is pretty much at Square One. Square One does make a lot of sense, hopefully that is the actual location. That Mississauga site is another site that is taking a very long time to come to fruition - I think that pin has been on the map since about 2017-8.

 

[CanadaGoose]

That's understood that there isn't free parking. We do have some urban SCs in Ontario and you have to pay for parking at the Toronto Eaton Centre, Ottawa Rideau Centre, etc. You can't offer free parking in cities where parking is expensive or it will be abused.

But I go back to the main point of this thread. Has Tesla abandoned their city charging strategy that they announced a few years ago? They do appear to have abandoned two urban sites in Toronto.

If you look on a Tesla Navigation map, you will quickly see most the paid parking locations have way less users.

Luckily, Canadian urban SCs like Rideau and Toronto Eaton Centre are self park.

And I guess I will add to the never-ending thread, but we have urban SCs in Canada at the following locations:
- CF Sherway Gardens Etobicoke
- CF Toronto Eaton Centre
- CF Rideau Ottawa
- CF Laval
- CF Pacific Centre (Vancouver)
- CF Waterfront Centre (Vancouver)
- Uptown Mall in Victoria, BC (whole foods) (makes sense there's nowhere to go after)
- Guildford Tower centre
- Fairmont Chateau Whistler

I assume the reason behind these urban SCs are mainly just either location is at a shopping centre (that is considered high-end) or the parking garage is small and doesnt have significant space to store transformers and cabinets.

If anything, there is probably a push to add V3s and/or lack of V2 urban charging equipment. It may explain why the Q2 Tesla Montreal Supercharger isnt here yet.

 

[Vawlkus]

They didn't start sites and stop, but they announced two sites within Toronto that have now disappeared from the map. But this is what they said in 2017 in their announcement entitled "Supercharging Cities" (see post 23 above):

This is what has been abandoned, at least for Toronto, as two urban sites (Yonge & Eg and the Annex) have been cancelled and the Liberty Village site is now at a hotel which is more convenient for long distance drivers. If it was to be convenient for locals it would have been at a supermarket, as they alluded to in their press release, and there is a Metro Supermarket in Liberty Village.

Maybe they are having trouble with the urban style chargers, but end users don't care so much about the type of charger.

As you say, canceled not abandoned. I’m more inclined to put such things on the landowner’s change of mind or stance, but there’s no real way to know for sure.