HPWC on 12/2 Romex

[Webeevdrivers]

If all I ever did was use my car to go to work it would be fine. But I use it every chance I get. Since I have solar to cover the car I prefer not super charge either.

Good on you. We also seldom use DCFC (we are Leaf drivers). Leaves it for those who need it.

We have s 40 amp Juice box in the garage but it involves running the cord under the garage door if the our other car is in the garage. I rarely need it. The little 12 amp 240 volt clipper creek unit pretty much covers all my daily needs.

Wish I had solar. We are in a town house with 100 amp service so a 40 amp EVSE and a 12 amp EVSE are the max we’ll ever have. It’s actually a good combo. We are an all EV household.

 

[wtfuzz]

Your plan is a good one. The Wall Connector is overkill for just a 20a circuit, but as you point out, you can easily upgrade to a 60a or greater circuit later. 20a (actually 16a) 240v is that absolute minimum I work recommend for home charging for most folks. It may get you by until you do that upgrade.

It drives me crazy that the Wall Connector manual does not outline allowed wire gauges in the terminals. That is insane. Every electrical device does that. I had to email them to ask what the max gauge is (it is 2 awg copper btw). I have never asked about minimum, but since it can crank down to as low as a 15a circuit, I suspect as low as 14awg is fine (clamp style terminals are very forgiving).

Make sure too don’t have a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel. They are fire hazards.

Btw, if spending the money on a service upgrade, do the math and figure out if 200a is enough. You may even want to jump to the next size up (typically 320a continuous load).

Good luck! Welcome to Tesla ownership!

This is my current panel. I’m not sure what brand it is. Hopefully not a fire hazard one!

 

[wtfuzz]

I now faintly see stab-lok at the bottom of the middle sticker. This means it’s a federal pacific panel, doesn’t it?

 

[timk225]

What the hell panel is that? Never seen one exactly like that. Those breaker handles are the size and shape of Federal Pacific ones, they just don't have the red paint on the ends.

If it is anything federal pacific or zinsco, it is junk, get it out of your house before you burn the place down.

I have Cutler Hammer CH type panels in my house, and others, such as Cutler Hammer BR types, GE, Murray, Square D and so forth are acceptable also. Older Crouse-Hinds panels can use modern Murray breakers, one was bought by the other.

Mine:

 

[timk225]

And just to take things a little further off track, here's my power map for the main floor of my house. I'm a computer nerd with too much free time! I have a great numbering system, and once you start mapping out your panel, you'll probably be surprised at how few breakers can be put in charge of controlling way too many outlets. I've done this in several apartments I've lived in, and every one had some seriously stupid wiring in it. I was pleasantly surprised when we got this house and I mapped out the electrical system, the main floor needed almost nothing changed. If I were wiring this house, there is no way I'd have #17 controlling the outlets in THREE bedrooms. Each room would have at least one dedicated 20 amp circuit to itself. So I added in #19 for a dedicated 120 volt 5-20 air conditioner outlet, and 20-22 to run a 6-20 charging outlet (it now runs a 14-50 to my driveway with a 50 amp breaker) and 12-14 for a 14-50 for the electric stove, which was also used for charging the car with a 15 foot 14-50 extension cord until I built the driveway and set up its own power on another 14-50 not shown here, before I had the 6-20 in place. I made this drawing in Microsoft Paint.

NOTE - this drawing was made before I had my driveway power run, so the 20-22 breaker in the drawing doesn't line up with how the panel is now. Once my driveway power was in, I moved the 6-20 power to the other breaker panel that controls the upstairs apartment, and it is shut down now.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

To put this in perspective...approximate calculations:
12k miles/yr @ 3mi/kWh (330Wh/mi)
4000kWh/yr
3.8kW available => 4000kWh/yr/3.8kw = 1053hrs/yr of charging

There are (365days/yr*24hrs/day = 8760hrs/yr - but you'll be driving about 4.5% of those hours @40mph...so ~8350 available to charge (only some of which you'll be at home for of course))

So: You'll be required to be charging the car 13% of the time, if you do all your charging at home.

Which means the vast majority of the time you'll definitely be fine, the issue is obviously when you do sudden bursts of a lot of driving. Long trip followed by another trip the same day is where potentially there could be an issue...which happens only rarely.

Compare to [email protected] works out to be 34% of the time spent charging...which is definitely more problematic...not to mention the increased overhead due to AC/DC inefficiency.

40A@240 is ~5% of the time...

 

[wtfuzz]

What the hell panel is that? Never seen one exactly like that. Those breaker handles are the size and shape of Federal Pacific ones, they just don't have the red paint on the ends.

If it is anything federal pacific or zinsco, it is junk, get it out of your house before you burn the place down.

I have Cutler Hammer CH type panels in my house, and others, such as Cutler Hammer BR types, GE, Murray, Square D and so forth are acceptable also. Older Crouse-Hinds panels can use modern Murray breakers, one was bought by the other.

Mine:
View attachment 412262

It looks like mine is a “federal pioneer”, which is related to federal pacific but made in Canada by Schneider. They’re supposedly equally as junky as federal pacific.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It looks like mine is a “federal pioneer”, which is related to federal pacific but made in Canada by Schneider. They’re supposedly equally as junky as federal pacific.

Sweet. I guess the experts here will weigh in on exactly how dangerous this particular panel is (they might ask you to remove the cover if you're comfortable doing so). To me it just seems incrementally more dangerous if the panel does have defective breakers (if it is defective, it is already dangerous!). But I don't know all the issues with new loads that tend to be more continuous in nature...

 

[davewill]

We're talking 14-15 hours to charge the car all the way from 0-100%. My guess is that you if you are religious about plugging in, you could use this forever and almost never have an issue.

 

[eprosenx]

This is my current panel. I’m not sure what brand it is. Hopefully not a fire hazard one!

View attachment 412189

Wow! I have never seen a panel like that. Must be a Canadian thing.

Props to @wtfuzz - I suspect he is correct in the Federal Pioneer guess. Those breakers very much look like Federal Pacific ones, but yeah, no red on the handles and the panel looks nothing like others I have seen.

It looks like a lot of sticker data from the front of it might be missing? I would love to see the inside of it (with detailed pictures of any stickers and all the wiring) if that was possible to do safely.

I am not an expert in breaker safety testing, but if you believe a lot of what is written up on the Internet, the Federal Pacific story is pretty damning. It seems generally accepted that the Federal Pacific Stab-Lok stuff is a latent fire hazard. In most cases I hear home inspectors will flag them and recommend replacement prior to sale. It is really a tragedy that US regulatory bodies have not taken up this issue and either published strong documentation on the risks of these panels, OR cleared their names so folks can make wise decisions about replacing them or not.

Federal Pioneer is obviously a separate company in Canada, but with the same base breaker designs. Again, if you read what you find on the Internet, their stuff may not fare any better than the US made stuff.

Should Federal Pioneer FP Stab-Lok® Panels & Circuit Breakers be Replaced?

If it were my house, I think without a doubt I would replace it. Not only is there that question of the safety, but there is also the limit to 125 amps and you have a stated desire to go higher. So yeah, I would encourage you to pursue options.

Good luck and please report back on what you end up doing!

P.S. Asking local resources about their safety (electricians, home inspectors, code inspectors, etc...) might be a good idea. I am positive you are not the only one around with those panels.

 

[eprosenx]

Wow! I have never seen a panel like that. Must be a Canadian thing.

Props to @wtfuzz - I suspect he is correct in the Federal Pioneer guess. Those breakers very much look like Federal Pacific ones, but yeah, no red on the handles and the panel looks nothing like others I have seen.

It looks like a lot of sticker data from the front of it might be missing? I would love to see the inside of it (with detailed pictures of any stickers and all the wiring) if that was possible to do safely.

I am not an expert in breaker safety testing, but if you believe a lot of what is written up on the Internet, the Federal Pacific story is pretty damning. It seems generally accepted that the Federal Pacific Stab-Lok stuff is a latent fire hazard. In most cases I hear home inspectors will flag them and recommend replacement prior to sale. It is really a tragedy that US regulatory bodies have not taken up this issue and either published strong documentation on the risks of these panels, OR cleared their names so folks can make wise decisions about replacing them or not.

Federal Pioneer is obviously a separate company in Canada, but with the same base breaker designs. Again, if you read what you find on the Internet, their stuff may not fare any better than the US made stuff.

Should Federal Pioneer FP Stab-Lok® Panels & Circuit Breakers be Replaced?

If it were my house, I think without a doubt I would replace it. Not only is there that question of the safety, but there is also the limit to 125 amps and you have a stated desire to go higher. So yeah, I would encourage you to pursue options.

Good luck and please report back on what you end up doing!

P.S. Asking local resources about their safety (electricians, home inspectors, code inspectors, etc...) might be a good idea. I am positive you are not the only one around with those panels.

Another recent article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e68e9be9d47c

I really hope the CPSC does some scientific testing and publishes it.

 

[wtfuzz]

Wow! I have never seen a panel like that. Must be a Canadian thing.

Props to @wtfuzz - I suspect he is correct in the Federal Pioneer guess. Those breakers very much look like Federal Pacific ones, but yeah, no red on the handles and the panel looks nothing like others I have seen.

It looks like a lot of sticker data from the front of it might be missing? I would love to see the inside of it (with detailed pictures of any stickers and all the wiring) if that was possible to do safely.

I am not an expert in breaker safety testing, but if you believe a lot of what is written up on the Internet, the Federal Pacific story is pretty damning. It seems generally accepted that the Federal Pacific Stab-Lok stuff is a latent fire hazard. In most cases I hear home inspectors will flag them and recommend replacement prior to sale. It is really a tragedy that US regulatory bodies have not taken up this issue and either published strong documentation on the risks of these panels, OR cleared their names so folks can make wise decisions about replacing them or not.

Federal Pioneer is obviously a separate company in Canada, but with the same base breaker designs. Again, if you read what you find on the Internet, their stuff may not fare any better than the US made stuff.

Should Federal Pioneer FP Stab-Lok® Panels & Circuit Breakers be Replaced?

If it were my house, I think without a doubt I would replace it. Not only is there that question of the safety, but there is also the limit to 125 amps and you have a stated desire to go higher. So yeah, I would encourage you to pursue options.

Good luck and please report back on what you end up doing!

P.S. Asking local resources about their safety (electricians, home inspectors, code inspectors, etc...) might be a good idea. I am positive you are not the only one around with those panels.

I can also see “BE 120-30” on the faded sticker.

I found a picture of someone selling one on Kijiji: