Is this wheel and tire Setup a bad idea?

[SMGDHG]

Hi Everyone, new to the forum and new to the world of Tesla's but not new to cool cars! I recently picked up a 2023 M3 SR and have been very happy with the car. The car is 100% stock.

I am looking to add wheels and tires to the car. I am considering APEX EC-7's in 18x9.5" size, along with 275/35/18 Continental Extreme Contact Force Tires.

Where I had some questions for the group was in regards to the following:

1.) What spacer do you think I will need (if any) to get the 275's to fit?
2.) Will I have any rubbing under full suspension compression? Any rubbing at full lock?
3.) What else am I missing/not thinking of?

Thanks everyone!

 

[gearchruncher]

You didn't list an offset for the wheels, so it's impossible to estimate any rubbing or need for spacers.

You can fit 275's generally with careful offset.

The main issue you will have is a massive increase in energy use with sticky 275 tires. Like an extra 30% from Tesla's rating for the stock tires. I wouldn't plan on driving an SR more than 150 miles on those tires before needing a charge.

What are your goals with the tires? 200TW on the street, but on a car with no other suspension mods? That's not commonly done. You'll get a lot more real world performance out of some camber.

There are a lot of us that race these cars on 200TW tries, but I don't know anyone that tries to daily that.

 

[dsgerbc]

Without extra camber, It is possible that a 275-wide tire (on a 35ish offset wheel) would contact the fender on full compression while turning. I'd stick to 265mm and narrower for daily driving (w/o further supporting mods).

 

[SMGDHG]

Without extra camber, It is possible that a 275-wide tire (on a 35ish offset wheel) would contact the fender on full compression while turning. I'd stick to 265mm and narrower for daily driving (w/o further supporting mods).

Exact kind of thing I am trying to avoid... thank you sir!

 

[SMGDHG]

You didn't list an offset for the wheels, so it's impossible to estimate any rubbing or need for spacers.

You can fit 275's generally with careful offset.

The main issue you will have is a massive increase in energy use with sticky 275 tires. Like an extra 30% from Tesla's rating for the stock tires. I wouldn't plan on driving an SR more than 150 miles on those tires before needing a charge.

What are your goals with the tires? 200TW on the street, but on a car with no other suspension mods? That's not commonly done. You'll get a lot more real world performance out of some camber.

There are a lot of us that race these cars on 200TW tries, but I don't know anyone that tries to daily that.

Great info, thank you for the response! I was expecting a range hit, but WOW 30%?! That's really rough. My commute to work is 4 miles round trip, but I frequently do a 150mile drive on weekends. So having to charge 2 times for that would not be ideal.

I have a mustang that is a gutted race car, so I just want the model 3 to be "trackable" 3-4 times per year. Was trying to avoid installing anything like rear camber arms, front control arms, cc plates etc. due to wanting to keep factory warranty on everything. Open to the idea of stiff sway bars to keep the body roll under control. Other than that, I was going to get the car aligned with max camber that all factory stuff can give me (I think that is around -1.5°??) and a little bit of toe in.

So, overall goals would be to have the car still retain its factory warranty and components, but still be able to keep up with 10/10th's driving on a road course 3-4 times per year. The short list for this was better wheels, better tires. The long list (lets call it stage 2) was sway bars, brake pads and fluid. Nothing beyond that if possible.

Thanks again for the help

 

[SMGDHG]

The offset for the apex wheels is 35mm BTW.

 

[gearchruncher]

I have a mustang that is a gutted race car, so I just want the model 3 to be "trackable" 3-4 times per year. Was trying to avoid installing anything like rear camber arms, front control arms, cc plates etc. due to wanting to keep factory warranty on everything. Open to the idea of stiff sway bars to keep the body roll under control. Other than that, I was going to get the car aligned with max camber that all factory stuff can give me (I think that is around -1.5°??) and a little bit of toe in.

Max stock camber is maybe 0.5°. There are no useful adjustments for this on the Model 3. All you can do is push the upper control arm mounts in as far as possible in the slack in the bolt holes, and stock camber is near zero. It's the biggest limitation of the platform for stock performance. The rear has zero adjustment.

The Model 3 doesn't need sway bars until you are really pushing other mods due to the very low CG. If you're willing to change sway bars, that's already a suspension mod. Do the front upper control arms instead, and get some camber, which will increase performance and reduce tire wear. Running half a degree on the track will tear up your front tires. The FUCAs are a quick install/removal with no permanent changes. I've brought my car in for warranty stuff with them with zero comments.

If you're looking for a track setup, I would run the stock wheels/tires on the street and throw your 200TW's on for the track. Why would you want to wear out those expensive tires on the street anyway? A set of tires fits into the Model 3 easily so you can even swap at the track.

10/10ths on a track is gonna require brake system changes. The stock non-P brakes are not up to heavy use even with updated pads. This is still a heavy ~300 HP car. The E-LSD can really beat up the brakes as well if you are driving up against the nannies which you can't disable.

FYI, the warranty specifically excludes any track use, so you're risking the warranty the instant you take it to the track.

Plan on 300-330 wh/mi energy use on the highway with 200TW 275's unless you want to drive at 55 MPH. That would put an SR at 150-165 miles range from full to empty with the 50kWh battery. I only get about 200 useful miles on my 72kWh battery and that's with 400TW 265's.

If all you care about is lap times and you're an experienced track driver, I bet the car would be faster with a plug-in box that lets you defeat the nannies than any physical suspension mods, or even monster sticky tires. The stability system is pretty intrusive when not in track mode. Mountain Pass goes as far as to call "the Model 3 being essentially useless on the racetrack" without stability defeated.

Previous discussions:

Will the Long Range survive occasional trackdays?

Hi, I am deep down the rabbit hole about the decision between LR and P (as soooo many people here too). It is currently 5k difference here in Europe, but I am not sure if it is worth it and if I need it even for trackdays... The question is: Will the LR survive 2-3 trackdays a year? I am a...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[SMGDHG]

Max stock camber is maybe 0.5°. There are no useful adjustments for this on the Model 3. All you can do is push the upper control arm mounts in as far as possible in the slack in the bolt holes, and stock camber is near zero. It's the biggest limitation of the platform for stock performance. The rear has zero adjustment.

The Model 3 doesn't need sway bars until you are really pushing other mods due to the very low CG. If you're willing to change sway bars, that's already a suspension mod. Do the front upper control arms instead, and get some camber, which will increase performance and reduce tire wear. Running half a degree on the track will tear up your front tires. The FUCAs are a quick install/removal with no permanent changes. I've brought my car in for warranty stuff with them with zero comments.

If you're looking for a track setup, I would run the stock wheels/tires on the street and throw your 200TW's on for the track. Why would you want to wear out those expensive tires on the street anyway? A set of tires fits into the Model 3 easily so you can even swap at the track.

10/10ths on a track is gonna require brake system changes. The stock non-P brakes are not up to heavy use even with updated pads. This is still a heavy ~300 HP car. The E-LSD can really beat up the brakes as well if you are driving up against the nannies which you can't disable.

FYI, the warranty specifically excludes any track use, so you're risking the warranty the instant you take it to the track.

Plan on 300-330 wh/mi energy use on the highway with 200TW 275's unless you want to drive at 55 MPH. That would put an SR at 150-165 miles range from full to empty with the 50kWh battery. I only get about 200 useful miles on my 72kWh battery and that's with 400TW 265's.

If all you care about is lap times and you're an experienced track driver, I bet the car would be faster with a plug-in box that lets you defeat the nannies than any physical suspension mods, or even monster sticky tires. The stability system is pretty intrusive when not in track mode. Mountain Pass goes as far as to call "the Model 3 being essentially useless on the racetrack" without stability defeated.

Previous discussions:

Will the Long Range survive occasional trackdays?

Hi, I am deep down the rabbit hole about the decision between LR and P (as soooo many people here too). It is currently 5k difference here in Europe, but I am not sure if it is worth it and if I need it even for trackdays... The question is: Will the LR survive 2-3 trackdays a year? I am a...

teslamotorsclub.com

Really fantastic responses, thank you for the help! That's crazy on the range. That might be a deal breaker for me. The reason I wanted to run the 200tw is I have a tire source that allows me to run them for a fantastic deal. Sadly, swapping wheels/tires at the track is a no-go for me. The reason I want to track the model 3 is for the ease and accessibility vs. the truck and trailer shenanigans of the mustang.

For the brakes, long term, I was thinking really high temperature pads, motul 600 and if that still doesn't do it then would likely run a girodisc rotor to try and get some cool air to the caliper and pad. Great info on nannies over-heating the brakes, I have read that before for other vehicles.

You bring up a good point in regards to warranty. Have you had any warranty issues with having your car on track? I noticed the warranty states timed, competition events. Interested to see where HPDE fits in there. I did a ton of searching on this forum and found some discussions on it, but few had many concrete examples of warranty being denied or still covering items.

I did come across the TC defeat box, and, almost as quickly as I fell in love with the idea of it, I fell out of love in that it seems like it would be a guaranteed warranty void-er if I got one of those installed. I have to imagine Tesla can easily see via datalogs that the car has been messed with, but would be awesome if I am wrong. I have driven the car on some backroads, and wasn't impressed by the TC, but wasn't totally disappointed in it either. Part of my theory for wanting to do sticky tires was to have less traction control intrusion for a given speed. IE, 10/10th's driving on the stock 400tw tires would be the equivalent to about 4/10th's driving on a 200tw, therefore (in theory????) there should be less traction control intrusion due to not being anywhere near the limit of adhesion.

Thanks for the link to the previous discussion! It was a good read.

 

[jjrandorin]

That's crazy on the range. That might be a deal breaker for me.

I am not qualified to speak to the topic that you are asking about (we have several other members here who are though, and a few of them have already chimed in).

I just wanted to point out that, a Tesla is rolling around on the energy equivalent of about 3-4 gallons of gas, when its fully charged, so when you change something it can have a more pronounced effect (like bigger, stickier tires having a pronounced effect on range).

 

[gearchruncher]

There are not a lot of stories on warranty denial in any cases. But it's gonna be an uphill battle to convince them you were on a track but "not a competition or timed." Same battle you'd have with having FUCAs and then you have an issue with the rear motor, which moss-magnusun says shouldn't void a warranty. I just don't get the "maintain warranty while tracking the car." You're risking it no matter what. But I don't think anyone has ever had a warranty issue for having FUCAs or even coilovers, which are super common (unless you are complaining about suspension noise or something). You know that Tesla can't legally void the whole vehicle warranty for a mod, right?

The party box is the same. It just turns on existing functions in the car that Tesla doesn't give you access to in lower trims, and you can unplug it quickly and easily. Very unlikely to be detected. Of course Tesla can check datalogs. Which they could check and see that you were doing 120 MPH on the front straight of the local track.

Here's the reality- if you track the car, you probably will have an issue if you ever have to get warranty on the motor, axles, brakes, or maybe the battery. Those are thankfully very reliable. Otherwise, I history says Tesla won't care on other items.

I get the pain of swapping tires at the track, but to be clear, you can fit a full set of wheels/tires in the Model 3 easy, and still use the front seat. I do it a few times a month. Throw a harbor freight jack in the rear and you can swap in 15 minutes at the track.

I've never thought of 10/10 on 400's being 4/10 on 200TW. The grip difference is only about 20%, and the breakaway characteristics of some 200's are way more abrupt than street tires. But every driver and tire setup is different.

But range, yeah... What kind of range or wh/mi are you currently getting with the stock tires and which tires do you have?

I just wanted to point out that, a Tesla is rolling around on the energy equivalent of about 3-4 gallons of gas

Way less! The SR has 50kWh. That's only 1.5 gallons of gas (gas is 33kWh per gallon)

 

[dsgerbc]

Most 200tw tires are very loud on the street, you wouldn't want to have them on all the time regardless of wear. Most over-200tw tires aren't meant to handle track heat and will quickly get greasy. If you keep on tracking past that point, you'll cord the outside edge in no time.

Swapping tires takes like 20 minutes, after a bit of practice.

But honestly, tracking the M3P is already a chore due to not being able to run all heats during the day due to needing to recharge. I cannot imagine the RWD being any less annoying.

 

[gearchruncher]

. I cannot imagine the RWD being any less annoying.

The RWD with 40% less battery than an AWD/P....

We haven't event talked about that. A SR car would get, what, 30 minutes on track before needing a charge assuming it started at 90%? And would be pretty slow at the end of that 30 minutes.

The only place I could imagine really making this work is at Laguna Seca or Buttonwillow (both have superchargers onsite).

 

[SMGDHG]

The RWD with 40% less battery than an AWD/P....

We haven't event talked about that. A SR car would get, what, 30 minutes on track before needing a charge assuming it started at 90%? And would be pretty slow at the end of that 30 minutes.

The only place I could imagine really making this work is at Laguna Seca or Buttonwillow (both have superchargers onsite).

Laguna, Buttonwillow have operational superchargers. Thunderhill has them but they are not yet operational. I wouldn't dare go to a track that didn't have a supercharger on the premises LOL

 

[gearchruncher]

I wouldn't dare go to a track that didn't have a supercharger on the premises LOL

You're very lucky. Everyone else in the remaining 49 states has to deal with superchargers that are between pretty far away and uselessly far away from our local tracks.

The closest supercharger to my favorite track near me is 30 miles away.

 

[Lindenwood]

You're very lucky. Everyone else in the remaining 49 states has to deal with superchargers that are between pretty far away and uselessly far away from our local tracks.

The closest supercharger to my favorite track near me is 30 miles away.

Lucky indeed!

Hell,… in one AutoX event there was such a dearth of charging options I had to spend 5 hours in a McDonalds parking lot to get to 99% before a 15-minute drive to the race area . (It was perfectly pleasant…lunch, the Witcher, a nap, and an early dinner before heading out haha).

At another event I left the Supercharger at 95% but had to drive 30 minutes and had to start racing at 77% :/ .

 

[PaulH]

I've brought my car in for warranty stuff with them with zero comments.

What "warranty stuff" did you have done? I inquired about inspecting suspension before my 50k mile warranty expires and Tesla would charge $73 for rear and $122 for front inspection. If a manufacturer's problem was discovered, that would be covered under warranty, but that's very unlikely at this point (I'm at 49K miles) so it's more likely that I'd have to pay for any work discovered as those parts are considered "maintenance" items subject to normal wear and tear.

 

[PaulH]

A SR car would get, what, 30 minutes on track before needing a charge assuming it started at 90%? And would be pretty slow at the end of that 30 minutes.

Why would car be "pretty slow" at the end of 30 minutes? My understanding is batteries put out close to full power for the range of charge and don't really drop off until nearly dead.

 

[gearchruncher]

My understanding is batteries put out close to full power for the range of charge and don't really drop off until nearly dead.

That's not correct. Voltage falls a lot vs SoC and internal resistance increases.
Here's a M3P chart of power vs SoC: