Israel/Hamas conflict

[Just a Reader]

1) UNRWA doesn't have to be part of Hamas to have negative effects. Hamas is siphoning money / materials off them either way.

2) As for belligerence...I don't know. The false premise I think most westerners operate is thinking that Palestinians would leave peacefully if Israel just left them alone...meanwhile Palestinians and Arabs in neighboring countries don't say that.

For decades people could travel between Israel and the territories and there was some "peace". I could agree the first Intifada bore out of frustration with being occupied. But "land for peace" never seemed to suffice. Palestinians, IMO did not have leverage to deem any of the various peace dealings as "unfair". Now they are just in a worse spot.

Israel removed settlements from Gaza in 2005 as an incremental display of what they could do nonviolently and the response was anything but positive. Sure there was still a blockade to ensure dangerous weapons weren't imported...but again there was an incremental attempt to show a non-violent path and it was squashed.

This is not to say Israel is blamless - far from it. The original plan of occupying those territories to eventually trade for peace was a failure. All the settler violence and IDF aggressiveness need to stop and are hurting any chance of peace.

But fundamentally, Palestinians have not accepted any moves toward peace. This is a much bigger thorn in the conflict. If Palestinians don't first accept their future country is going to be basicallly be the borders they currently have, nothing else can change this downward spiral.

What nonviolent path was that to be? Israel never saw Gaza as anything else than an open air prison.
With the expansion of the illegal settlements over the past years there is the question, how any Palestinian state is supposed to be viable anyway.

 

[madodel]

Finally something both sides of the manipulated lunatics can agree on. Putin finally has something to smile about.

Unity: Pro-Palestine and Pro-Israel Protestors Chant ‘F*ck Joe Biden’ in Unison

Biden has received criticism from supporters of both Palestine and Israel, with those in support of Palestine accusing the president of aiding Israel’s military offensive in Gaza, which has resulted in at least 35,000 deaths. Those in support of Israel, meanwhile, have accused Biden of not providing sufficient support to Israel’s offensive.

 

[Just a Reader]

Finally something both sides of the manipulated lunatics can agree on. Putin finally has something to smile about.

Unity: Pro-Palestine and Pro-Israel Protestors Chant ‘F*ck Joe Biden’ in Unison

You really have to admire the sheer brass neck of the Israel supporters who seriously seem to believe that Israel is owed even more.

 

[Zaddy Daddy]

What nonviolent path was that to be? Israel never saw Gaza as anything else than an open air prison.
With the expansion of the illegal settlements over the past years there is the question, how any Palestinian state is supposed to be viable anyway.

Um, accepting Israel as a sovereign state and agreeing on borders with small land swaps?

I don't like settlement expansion (though keep in mind a few of those settlements were there pre 1948), but they aren't a dealbreaker for establishing a state. All the disconnected ones would be gone in a peace proposal.

As for Gaza, you act as if present state was how it always was. Not so. Things got worse in 2007 after you know who was voted into power.

It's impractical, but I'd love for international forces to just take over the management of Palestinian lands and relieve Israel of the blame. Let them stop Hamas from launching rockets every day.

And if they suceed removing the terrorism, then absolutely Palestinians should have a state, I don't care what Israel thinks.

Europe is so confident that Palestinians are just oppressed and will be peaceful without Israel occupation, let them handle it.

 

[wdolson]

The current government could fall and a more liberal minded government could take its place and actually make a treaty with the Palestinians, but the next time the conservatives get power, they could tear up the agreement and go back to the old ways.

Where is that "more liberal minded government" supposed to come from? I read that interview with Yair Lapid in the NY Times a couple of days ago. Basically all that he is willing to offer the Paalestinians is some bantustan, a demilitarised client state that has been proposed by the Israelis previously. Who is supposed to accept that?

Israel has allowed them some autonomy and the West Bank has a government that more or less works, but they still need to answer to Israeli government all the time. They have no control to conduct their own foreign relations (at least other than covert relations) and they are dependent on Israel for other things.

I have a very hard time to see any real advantages the Palestinians in the West Bank have gained from being cooperative. They still have no control over their borders, no airport, no control over their water supplies, etc. etc., but instead they have to accept hundreds of thousands of extremist and often violent settlers. Who wouldn't want to consider that as a perfect roadmap towards a a peaceful solution?

We were talking hypotheticals. There is pretty much nobody in the Israeli government today who would be a true liberal about Palestine. And my point was that even if there was a liberal government who would move towards a two state solution, the next conservative government would probably undo all the progress.

I dunno - after witnessing over half a century of Palestinians starting and failing numerous terrorist campaigns now bringing absolute ruin to places like Gaza, I have a hard time seeing any real advantages of Arabs in the West Bank continuing to refuse to negotiate.

Sure sounds like you are encouraging more futile fighting and violence from the safety of Germany.

I see it more as acknowledging the facts as they are now. There are no roads to peace right now.

Finally something both sides of the manipulated lunatics can agree on. Putin finally has something to smile about.

Unity: Pro-Palestine and Pro-Israel Protestors Chant ‘F*ck Joe Biden’ in Unison

Conflict in Israel is a no-win situation for a Democratic president. Especially now that the youngest segment of the adult population have been sold on Palestine by TikTok.

Um, accepting Israel as a sovereign state and agreeing on borders with small land swaps?

I don't like settlement expansion (though keep in mind a few of those settlements were there pre 1948), but they aren't a dealbreaker for establishing a state. All the disconnected ones would be gone in a peace proposal.

As for Gaza, you act as if present state was how it always was. Not so. Things got worse in 2007 after you know who was voted into power.

It's impractical, but I'd love for international forces to just take over the management of Palestinian lands and relieve Israel of the blame. Let them stop Hamas from launching rockets every day.

And if they suceed removing the terrorism, then absolutely Palestinians should have a state, I don't care what Israel thinks.

Europe is so confident that Palestinians are just oppressed and will be peaceful without Israel occupation, let them handle it.

Occupation of the Palestinian areas by a somewhat neutral military force to keep the peace would probably be the best short term solution to keep the peace, but I don't think there are any nations willing to take that on. The US would be a bad choice considering the history with Israel. Any country that is predominantly Christian or historically Christian would be a bad choice (looks too much like a new Crusade to the radical Muslims).

A country that has no religious dog in the fight like China or a Buddhist country might work, but none of them want anything to do with this conflict. Another Muslim country or coalition of Muslim countries might work, but most of the nearby Muslim countries don't want to get involved.

Basically the rest of the world doesn't want anything to do with this conflict or they are too involved to be a good neutral force to keep the peace.

 

[indysurfer]

What's there to negotiate? The Palestinian Authority has been so cooperative that the Palestinians see it as a collaborator, and what did the Palestinians get out of that?

Right - the Palestinian Authority is so cooperative, they can't even be bothered to change their genocidal and anti-Semitic children's textbooks brainwashing their future generations to all consuming Jew hatred. Not talking about Hamas here, but the so called moderate Palestinian Authority. Believe Abbas is serving his 20th year of his 8 year term living off EU and US taxpayers money.

With decades of education like this, no surprise that West Bank Palestinians are ignorant Islamist radicals too.

Even the EU Parliament is forced to call the textbooks out.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-parliament-slams-hateful-palestinian-textbooks-threatens-funding-freeze/

 

[wdolson]

Evidence is coming forward that the protesters that are causing problems have a significant number of people who are not students at the schools where the protests are happening.
What to know about 'outside agitators' cops say are co-opting Columbia protests

Outside 'instigators' and 'agitators' are behind violence, university leaders insist: Live updates

I saw this many years ago when the WTO protests in Seattle got violent. The WTO was meeting in Seattle and a number of peaceniks turned out to peacefully protest. Outside agitators posing as protesters started violence and things got out of hand.

I talked to someone who was protesting on a street corner. She and some others were standing there with signs and banners when a car pulled up, a couple of guys with hammers jumped out, smashed the windows of the nearby Starbucks and sped off. The protesters just standing there got blamed in the media (though the police couldn't arrest anyone because nobody had anything on them that could have broken the windows).

This happened all over the city. Since then it has become a pattern with peaceful protests for liberal causes. A friend of my partner went to some of the protests for black lives matter in Portland in 2020. Things were fine in the early evening, but then between 10 and midnight young men with crew cuts and masks would start showing up and would start throwing things at the police and damaging property.

Some of those men might have just been kids who wanted to get away with being anti-social or it may have been more organized. There are stories that the right wing militia groups from the next county were going down into Portland to stir up trouble. In 2020 they clashed with protesters several times resulting in property damage, injuries, and one death. The protesters were overwhelmingly lived in Portland while the agitators were from outside the county. Many live across the state line in SW Washington.

The day before the death in Portland I ran across the same agitators by accident when I was on my way home from the market. My partner wanted me to stop and pick up take out and they were doing an impromptu parade in front of the restaurant. It felt like I had stumbled into the middle of a Klan rally. On the news footage I saw some of the same trucks on the streets of Portland the next day, so I'm sure it was many of the same guys.

There were guys walking up and down the street with body armor and AR-15s. People were waving flags declaring their allegiance to a number of political candidates and driving up and down the street in their jacked up 4X4 pickups. A couple of the trucks were painted in camo colors.

The agitators have a political agenda. They think that maximizing chaos helps their candidate. Russia wants to see it too. They want to ensure Ukraine gets no more help from the US.

And stirring up trouble over Israel is a bad issue for Biden. The Boomers and Gen X are predominantly pro-Israel, even Democrat, and the younger generations are pro-Palestine to a large degree. The Republicans are more united on this. A large majority are pro-Israel so it's not a split issue for any Republican candidates.