Israel/Hamas conflict

[madodel]

If you ask an average Palestinian (in the videos I linked above), they want to move all the Jews back to Germany, Poland and the US.

These people have been fed endless hate of Jews for 80 years. They can't accept anything except the total destruction of Israel and the murdering rapists take advantage of that to stay in power and steal all the funds that were supposed to improve the lives of the Palestinian people.

 

[Just a Reader]

If you ask an average Palestinian (in the videos I linked above), they want to move all the Jews back to Germany, Poland and the US.

(moderator edit) You may want to look at the far nastier opnions that were voiced by prominent Israeli politicians (and industriously collected by the South Africans).
Again: what is the proposal if you don't want to establish a two state solution?
I believe that you are mistaken if you believe that the rest of the world will tolerate the current situation for very much longer.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Saudi Arabia is still very much interested in normalizing relations with Israel. So Hamas has only accomplished heartbreak and the destruction of Gaza.

Saudi Arabia wants to reach deal with Israel, meaning Hamas failed

Hamas' plan to derail diplomatic talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia seems to have failed.

www-businessinsider-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Jigglypuff]

Saudi Arabia is still very much interested in normalizing relations with Israel. So Hamas has only accomplished heartbreak and the destruction of Gaza.

They sure do love the Palestinians in Arab countries.

As I said before, just because someone is critical of the actions of the Israeli government, it does not mean they hate the Jewish people. The meme of criticism of the Israeli government being antisemitism is one that has been cultivated over the years to silence criticism of Israel.

There are people criticizing Israel who also hate the Jewish people, but there are also people criticizing Israel who are criticizing them they same way they would criticize the actions of any country doing the same thing. Israel has done some things that deserve criticism. It does not necessarily mean the person criticizing their actions has any ill will against Jewish people.

Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

Antisemitism is on the rise, that Pandora's box was opened by people who have been encouraging racism in recent years. It is a problem that has some relation to this conflict, but antisemitism outside the Middle East is a bit different situation than the antisemitism driving this war in the ME.

But still it does not mean that a person who is critical of what Israel is doing right now in Gaza is automatically an antisemite. There is overlap of the Venn diagrams, but far from one to one.

The idea that any and all criticism of the Israeli government and Israel is criticized as antisemitism is itself an antisemitic trope (moderator edit: A…) strawman is a strawman and an antisemite to boot.

There's lots of criticism to legitimately lay on Israel, but the vast majority of what I see is directly or indirectly motivated by antisemitism, and that which is indirectly motivated by antisemitism IS antisemitism. I'm not sure which kind of antisemite you are you are, and I honestly don't care. There is a constant stream of double standards from people like you.

When Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, did you say that Floyd did not have clean hands?

When China started genocide against the Uighyars, did you say that nobody has clean hands?

When Putin invaded Ukraine, did you say that nobody has clean hands?

Antisemitism in and out of the Middle East never went away, and it's all about the same. Conspiracy theories, hatred, and double standards in different measures depending on the individual.

The non-antisemites say little more than three things at this time: F Hamas, return the hostages, and how are you doing.

 

[wdolson]

They sure do love the Palestinians in Arab countries.

The idea that any and all criticism of the Israeli government and Israel is criticized as antisemitism is itself an antisemitic trope (moderator edit: A…) strawman is a strawman and an antisemite to boot.

There's lots of criticism to legitimately lay on Israel, but the vast majority of what I see is directly or indirectly motivated by antisemitism, and that which is indirectly motivated by antisemitism IS antisemitism. I'm not sure which kind of antisemite you are you are, and I honestly don't care. There is a constant stream of double standards from people like you.

When Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd, did you say that Floyd did not have clean hands?

When China started genocide against the Uighyars, did you say that nobody has clean hands?

When Putin invaded Ukraine, did you say that nobody has clean hands?

Antisemitism in and out of the Middle East never went away, and it's all about the same. Conspiracy theories, hatred, and double standards in different measures depending on the individual.

The non-antisemites say little more than three things at this time: F Hamas, return the hostages, and how are you doing.

So any discussion of antisemitism is automatically antisemetic? Riiight...

 

[SmokyPeat]

So any discussion of antisemitism is automatically antisemetic? Riiight...

To be fair, when this conflict first got underway you were pretty quick to jump forward and assert that antisemitism was mostly a thing of the past in the US. It didn't take long for that to be proven incorrect. I think the topic of antisemitism is probably one you'd do well to steer clear of.

 

[bhzmark]

To be fair, when this conflict first got underway you were pretty quick to jump forward and assert that antisemitism was mostly a thing of the past in the US. It didn't take long for that to be proven incorrect. I think the topic of antisemitism is probably one you'd do well to steer clear of.

I don't find antisemitism to be a useful charge anymore. And I suspect most younger, or otherwise immature, people who claim to want to help Palestinians by protesting Israel are motivated not by antisemitism, but rather are motivated by seeing and interpreting the world through a lense of oppressor/colonialism/imperialism vs oppressed/victim/underdog. This view is further facilitated by a lack of accurate history and moral and political common sense. And peer pressure and related virtue signaling.

All those factors have more explanatory power for me than prejudice against jews.

 

[SmokyPeat]

I think it's difficult to untangle the anti Israel sentiment from antisemitism. When somebody uses a paragliding jihadi as a fashion statement, I have to think that they harbor some antisemitic beliefs. I do think the country has made enormous strides since the days of Henry Ford and Father Coughlin.

 

[Just a Reader]

I don't find antisemitism to be a useful charge anymore. And I suspect most younger, or otherwise immature, people who claim to want to help Palestinians by protesting Israel are motivated not by antisemitism, but rather are motivated by seeing and interpreting the world through a lense of oppressor/colonialism/imperialism vs oppressed/victim/underdog. This view is further facilitated by a lack of accurate history and moral and political common sense. And peer pressure and related virtue signaling.

All those factors have more explanatory power for me than prejudice against jews.

but rather are motivated by seeing and interpreting the world through a lense of oppressor/colonialism/imperialism vs oppressed/victim/underdog

Well, I'm not "younger" and I consider this viewpoint as quite correct. From Herzl's "Der Judenstaat" over Balfour's declaration to the creation and recognition of Israel pushed forwards by Truman, it was a process entirely driven by Europe and the US. The local population who had lived there for centuries was simply expected to accept that an entirely new state was going to be imposed on them.
The time after WWII was the period of decolonisation and new countries were declared independent everywhere, based on the existing colonial borders. No one claimed that e.g. there had been no independent "Nigeria" in pre-colonial times. Therefore the established population of Palestine would havee been entirely within their rights to declare independence within their borders, instead of having a new state imposed on them mostly by the US.
BTW, as we are currently looking at Palestinian terrorism, we shouldn't forget the terror of the Irgun both against the Arabs and the British.

 

[SmokyPeat]

The population of Israel/Palestine was miniscule prior to the Zionist movement. Most of the Arabs moved there once the Jewish population began improving the land in the 20th century.

 

[Just a Reader]

The population of Israel/Palestine was miniscule prior to the Zionist movement. Most of the Arabs moved there once the Jewish population began improving the land in the 20th century.

These claims are simply not supported by the census figures.

 

[SmokyPeat]

The Muslim population in 1800 was one fifth the Jewish population in the first century. There was a massive influx of both Jews and Arabs in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

 

[Just a Reader]

The Muslim population in 1800 was one fifth the Jewish population in the first century. There was a massive influx of both Jews and Arabs in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Sorry, but I consider it as unreasonable to compare population figures that are 1700 years apart.
I suggest you take a look at the figures and particularly so at the sixfold increase of the Jewish population between 1922 and 1947. During the Ottoman period the Jewish population in Palestine was less than 5% of the total population.

Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yet somehow we are to believe that all these Arabs immigrated all of a sudden because of the Jewish immigration?
Despite being in the minority, the UN partition plan allocated more land to the Jewish population than to the Arabs.
Who could have expected this to work out well? The State Department certainly didn't, but Truman decided otherwise.

 

[SmokyPeat]

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare historic population figures. The Jewish population grew by about 550k between 1922 and 1947. The Muslim population by about 600k.

 

[madodel]

I think it's difficult to untangle the anti Israel sentiment from antisemitism. When somebody uses a paragliding jihadi as a fashion statement, I have to think that they harbor some antisemitic beliefs. I do think the country has made enormous strides since the days of Henry Ford and Father Coughlin.

Maybe but some Synagogues as well as Mosques have to have armed guards to protect worshipers. And it's not just garden variety NAZIs and Klan scum that are doing this. It's insane hatred against "others". So for some it is antisemitism which seems to be flourishing all over the world again and also just general anti-immigrant hatred combined.

Israel has survived 75 years by fighting back against its neighbors who have sworn in the past to completely cleanse the land of Jews. To all the folks throwing around the term genocide, that was what was planned for Israel. Killing 10 or 20,000 civilians is the cost of starting a war. They have gradually, through wars and diplomacy brought peace with most of those. I feel sorry for what is happening to the Palestinians, but they brought this on by continuing to support the murdering terrorists they made the official leaders of Gaza. It's sad that so many civilians have to die but hopefully the end result will be that the back will be broken of Hamas and Hezbollah and maybe the Israelis will remind Iran why it's dangerous to screw with Israel. And then maybe miraculously there will be real peace in the Middle East at least in regard to Jews and Muslims.

 

[Bet TSLA]

I think it's difficult to untangle the anti Israel sentiment from antisemitism.

And I think it's difficult for partisans to untangle Hamas from Palestinians. Seems like a swamp we needn't wallow in.

Personally, I am disgusted with Israel's government, specifically Netanyahu and the religious fanatic parties that support him. I believe they are responsible for murder, oppression, and war against all Palestinians, not only in Gaza but on the West Bank. They disgrace and dishonor Israel and Jews everywhere. The IDF has shown themselves to be a disgrace as well, somewhat to my surprise.

I am disgusted with Hamas and their actions towards Palestinians and Israelis. Murder, mayhem, and war. Disgraceful and dishonorable.

At this point it's entirely clear that there's nothing going on other than endless cycles of vengeance. Nobody involved has any solution other than "We'll have peace when the others are all dead." There is no adult to be seen anywhere.

 

[wdolson]

I don't find antisemitism to be a useful charge anymore. And I suspect most younger, or otherwise immature, people who claim to want to help Palestinians by protesting Israel are motivated not by antisemitism, but rather are motivated by seeing and interpreting the world through a lense of oppressor/colonialism/imperialism vs oppressed/victim/underdog. This view is further facilitated by a lack of accurate history and moral and political common sense. And peer pressure and related virtue signaling.

All those factors have more explanatory power for me than prejudice against jews.

This is a better explanation. Hamas and Hamas allies have been on a social media campaign for several years to sell the Palestinian cause to young people in the west. With a population that is mostly ignorant of history, they have succeeded quite well in selling the Palestinians as the victims of Israeli aggression.

There are two types of antisemitism going on. This social media campaign has created a sort of soft antisemitism among the consumers of this media. It's predominantly anti-Israel, but some anti-Jewish sentiment has slopped over. These people don't really want to see Jewish people killed or anything like that.

The other type is a small minority who are hard core antisemites with their ideology rooted in extreme right wing politics like neo-Nazism. This group is small, but it is very violent and vocal. Those people have been there a long time, they were just underground until it became safer for them to pop up their heads due to changing political climate.

The term antisemitism has kind of been co-opted to apply to anti-Jewish sentiment when Arabs are technically a Semitic people too.

 

[SmokyPeat]

The term antisemitism has kind of been co-opted to apply to anti-Jewish sentiment when Arabs are technically a Semitic people too.

It's a conspiracy!

 

[Jigglypuff]

Mods, antisemitic remarks ARE personal attacks, and this forum is rife with them.

(moderator note: neither antisemetic remarks nor personal attacks are tolerated here. But we don’t expect either side of the argument to be happy with the balance. Sometimes the best we can do means everyone is unhappy.)

 

[Just a Reader]

This is a better explanation. Hamas and Hamas allies have been on a social media campaign for several years to sell the Palestinian cause to young people in the west. With a population that is mostly ignorant of history, they have succeeded quite well in selling the Palestinians as the victims of Israeli aggression.

There are two types of antisemitism going on. This social media campaign has created a sort of soft antisemitism among the consumers of this media. It's predominantly anti-Israel, but some anti-Jewish sentiment has slopped over. These people don't really want to see Jewish people killed or anything like that.

The other type is a small minority who are hard core antisemites with their ideology rooted in extreme right wing politics like neo-Nazism. This group is small, but it is very violent and vocal. Those people have been there a long time, they were just underground until it became safer for them to pop up their heads due to changing political climate.

The term antisemitism has kind of been co-opted to apply to anti-Jewish sentiment when Arabs are technically a Semitic people too.

With a population that is mostly ignorant of history, they have succeeded quite well in selling the Palestinians as the victims of Israeli aggression.

Look at this:

Father of American teen killed in West Bank by Israeli fire rails against US support for Israel

The father of an American teen killed by Israeli fire in the occupied West Bank has railed against Washington’s military support for Israel

www.google.com

Ajaq's relative, Joe Abdel Qaki, said that Ajaq and a friend were having a barbecue in a village field when he was shot by Israeli fire, once in the head and once in the chest.

Have a barbecue, get shot and killed. To make this complete, the people who wanted to help this 17 year old got detained and checked for their IDs first.
370 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank alone during the last three months, while Netanyahu's government harbours a man convicted of terrorism offences, Itamar Ben-Gvir, as minister for national security matters.

We should rest assured, though, that the impression that there is deadly violence against Palestinians by the IDF and armed settlers is completely wrong...