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Model 3 external dimensions and comparison data...

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by X-Auto, May 7, 2017.

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  1. R.S

    R.S Active Member

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    5mm higher. That's basically as close to nothing as it gets. Making the roofline 5mm higher would result in 0.3% more air resistance. The equivalent of 0.22kWh in a 75kWh car, if driven at high speeds.

    Sure they could stack them horizontally, but I don't think they need to.
     
  2. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #22 stopcrazypp, May 8, 2017
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
    I remember reading that the 2170s would fit in the existing Model S/X enclosure, so I don't think it necessarily means the pack is taller.
     
  3. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Good point, though they could always do two layers which would still be lower height than vertical, but would get closer to the same capacity as vertical cells.

    I think most of the issue with the pack being limited to 75 KWh is the fact the motors are inside the wheelbase instead of outside as pointed out above. Though I don't think this was done for weight distribution, instead it was done to push the wheels out further and they may have found some cost savings with a simpler connection between the battery and motor. The power lines to the motor don't have to make their way around the axles, suspension, etc., they connect directly to the battery.
     
  4. McHoffa

    McHoffa EV.network

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    I was just giving an example of how a little weight above or behind the axle can affect driving. Might be a negligible difference between the S and 3
     
  5. Weezer Fan

    Weezer Fan Member

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    I'm kind of shocked! The Model 3 is really 184" long? I currently drive a 2005 Toyota Highlander. It is 185" long. The wheel base is only 107" though. I thought the Model 3 would be smaller than my Highlander. BTW-I bought a chair and put it in the back of the Highlander to bring it home. I will miss that.
     
  6. sg021

    sg021 Member

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    Yeah, that is right in line with A4, 3 series, Lexus IS, and C-class. Even the Highlander has grown quite a bit since 2005. Yours is closer in size to the RAV4 now.
     
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  7. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Initially Elon said the Model 3 was going to be about 80% the size of the Model S, but it's actually about 90% the size (by volume). Tesla is fighting Physics to some degree. To get good aerodynamics they either have to make a car so low to the ground few over the age of 7 could drive it or make it with a decent interior and make it longer to get the good aerodynamic shape.

    GM showed you could cram enough battery cells into a smaller car to get over 200 miles of range, but the Bolt has the aerodynamics of a paving brick. The Model 3 will likely get much better highway range than the Bolt, though the Bolt may be a little better in city driving.
     
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  8. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Some people seem to have gotten the impression that the Model 3 would be a compact car. It is not, and there is no compelling reason for it to be. Aerodynamics are better for longer cars.

    The Tesla Roadster, by the way, has lousy aerodynamics.
     
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  9. 03DSG

    03DSG Active Member

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    Sorry it took a while to respond. I am only talking RWD here. For normal driving on dry roads there would be no appreciable difference. An exaggerated example would be older Porsche 911's. The engine and therefore weight was behind the rear axle resulting in the tendency to oversteer or 'lose the back end'. Like a pendulum effect. On wet/snow covered conditions or at high cornering speeds in dry conditions when traction was lost the rear would let go violently. Moving any weight from outside the axles to inside makes it much easier to tune the chassis for more neutral handling.
    When I was open tracking we would 'corner weight' the car. Essentially putting a scale under each wheel. As an example with the car on the scales moving a 30 lb. battery from the front left corner ahead of the front axle to the right rear corner on or ahead of the rear axle increased the right rear scale by 70 lbs not just the 30 lbs. of the battery. The more weight ahead of the front axle or behind the rear axle the more the weight is magnified.
    From what we can see so far they have done a great job on the M3 by pushing the wheels to the corners and therefore lengthening the wheelbase compared to other cars with similar overall length. This minimizes overhang and moves as much weight as possible inside the axles.
     
  10. garsh

    garsh Re Member

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    From your l̶i̶p̶s̶ keyboard to G̶o̶d̶'̶s̶ ̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ Elon's monitor.
     
  11. dsvick

    dsvick Active Member

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    The difference is 5mm, that's less than a quarter of an inch. Accommodating that should be much less of a problem than would designing a pack with horizontal cell alignment, which would probably require a significant amount of redesign and engineering.
     
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  12. X-Auto

    X-Auto Member

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    With Supercharger V3 ! not sure Model 3 will be capable of bearing it !
     
  13. ikjadoon

    ikjadoon Member

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    I truly think Elon is referring to the Tesla Semi on that "350kW is child's play". Already, Tesla will permanently throttle charging speed on your Model S/X if you fast-charge (i.e., 50kW+, including Superchargers) too often (i.e., DC fast-charged over 30,000 miles of your mileage).

    Unless the 2170 cells have had a major breakthrough in charge rate C or unless Tesla has figured out how to charge more safely, I don't see anything over 150kW+ done safely on a consumer-level car done by Tesla in the upcoming future.
     
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  14. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    If you minimize parasitic reactions and lower the temperature then why not...
     
  15. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Though Tesla said about this that they don't throttle the charging, some battery packs will see a degradation in the charging capability from heat which will cause limits to fast charging. In other words the limit comes from the laws of Physics, not from any corporate policy.

    Big ask. Tesla already puts some pretty significant cooling into the cars and minimizing the parasitic reactions is a tough enough problem that some of the top battery engineers in the world have been working on them for years with little luck. It sounds easy, but it isn't.

    Ultimately faster charging speeds will probably happen when we have some kind of breakthrough that gets us away from li-ion and wet electrolytes. Minor breakthroughs have allowed minor advancements in the technology, but we're pretty close to the most we can do with the technology.

    The cutting edge labs are researching new technologies beyond li-ion. In the last few months 3-4 labs have announced some promising breakthroughs in solid state electrolytes which allow the use of solid lithium for the anode. They promise advancements in energy density, weight, and safety. Charging speed wouldn't have to be improved much if charge density had a major improvement.

    If the battery pack was 30% lighter and the charge density was just 2X the current best (probably realistic with solid state batteries), a Model S would have a range around 700-800 miles. That's good enough for an entire day's travel for most people. With an expansion of destination chargers, most people would drive all day on one charge and then recharge the car overnight while they slept. In cold weather or if someone was doing a marathon cross continent drive, they might still want to supercharge once in a day, but that would probably be a meal stop.

    For those who don't have access to charging at home, destination chargers at supermarkets and other places where people could plug in for a couple of hours would probably do the job for most people. Curbside chargers in neighborhoods with urban apartments would help people keep their car charged too.

    This wouldn't be possible until the early 2020s at the earliest. Probably mid-2020s is more likely.
     
  16. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    The article on Electrek regarding Jeff Dahn says they've made progress on this front. The patent on charging shows a new cooling system as well.
     
  17. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    I doubt that charging cooling system will ever be used for the car superchargers. It might be part of the semi superchargers, but it would make the car superchargers much more expensive per stall and be a major maintenance headache. On top of having to maintain the electrical system, Tesla will have to also maintain a liquid coolant system that needs to be engaged and disengaged every time a car pulls in to supercharge. Installation of the supercharger is much more complex too as each spot needs to be dug up to install the cooling pipes under the spot.

    Tesla has patented a number of things they never used. Back in 2014 they patented a type of battery that would only be useful for a few charges. The articles I read suggested Tesla might have been thinking about a trip range extender battery that would go in the trunk or frunk to extend the range, but it would degrade quickly after a relatively few charges.

    They even tried one battery swap station at Harris Ranch, but it's been mothballed. In the real world it didn't prove to be all that useful.
     
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  18. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    How did you propose the automatic charging is going to take place?
     
  19. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    There is no need for an external cooling source for automatic charging. They demonstrated the auto plugging snake almost 2 years ago. With full autonomous driving and the snake, that's all that needed for automatic charging.
     
  20. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the charging snake wasn't designed with a high charging rate in mind, unlike the platform. The charging snake also has more moving parts.
     

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