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Model 3 Performance - without performance pack vs with performance pack
- Thread starter formbyjules
- Start date
Actually 5 now! I have just asked Octopus for a quote to see how it compares to the deal I got from Pink.
Now that i have a estimated delivery date, this video turns up to suggest I should have stayed with LR or P-
Now that i have a estimated delivery date, this video turns up to suggest I should have stayed with LR or P-
They're not wrong!
I really wanted a P- as I simply couldn't live with the software crippled performance of the LR AWD out of principle. But I also refuse to now pay £900 MORE money for a white P- vs a white P+
So I'm getting the cheaper P+ and will probably put the £900 saving toward a set of 19" wheels (either the Tesla sport wheels when they become available or some nice aftermarket wheels). I'll sell the 20" wheels on ebay if I haven't destroyed them already!
If the P- comes back as a lower priced option before delivery (should be £2k less on current pricing) I may switch back, but it would be a close call for such relatively little saving, as I do prefer the bigger brakes (reviews suggest they have better pedal feel) and track mode could be fun (allowing a bit of sideways slip).
They should really make 19" wheels a no-cost option on the P+ as that would solve all my current dilemmas!
Firstly forget the Q7 as it will have a bigger overall tyre diameter and therefore higher profile tyres on the 20" rims. My Model X also has 20" rims, but they are on 45 profile tyres (probably same as your Q7).
Your 911 on the other hand is probably more like the M3, but the rims could well be stronger and it probably has active damping to help reduce the stress. Also wider rubber will help to spread the load more.
andyfox
Member
It's such a subjective thing. I've driven both the SR+ and the P+, and I didn't find the P+ suspension to be dramatically worse at absorbing bumps and imperfections in the road. The economy is the only real issue for me, but like you, I couldn't justify not changing.
I've read several reports now of people damaging the 20" wheels, so I guess this could be an issue, but I've had to deal with that on most of the performance cars I've had. The Tesla will be no different. Bigger wheels equals more expense, but also better handling.
Now that i have a estimated delivery date, this video turns up to suggest I should have stayed with LR or P-
hmm yes.... I think I will stick with my P+ rather than be swayed by a couple of random dudes on the internet
I must admit, coming from performance cars that I have never had a problem with "harsh" suspension. As for the wheels, hopefully we just need to drive round the pot holes rather than through them.It's all relative to what shite ride quality you are already used to! That part is certainly highly subjective, but I can believe the ride quality is still "acceptable".
My real concerns are road noise (already plenty of videos showing much higher road noise on 20") and rim damage from potholes and kerbs.
Better handling on 20" you reckon? I very much doubt it compared to 19" or even 18" on decent rubber. But the PUP does give you the uprated brakes, slightly lowered ride height and track mode, which will make it feel more "sporty" at least.
andyfox
Member
I'll be coming from an F10 M5 with adaptive suspension, and I found the comfort on the P+ to be very comparable to the M5. It's perfectly acceptable, and the M5 has some of the best suspension (for comfort) I've had in a performance car. Granted, it's not as compliant as the suspension in the SR+, but then I don't want that.
When you have a car as heavy as the Model 3, you do need slightly stiffer damping to ensure better body control. I'm happy with the compromise that Tesla have chosen for the P+.
As for handling on the 20's, then they are a lower profile tyre, so less sidewall flex which translates to better feel when pushing on. There's not much in it when it comes to contact patch size between the 18's, 19's and 20's. As you say, the rubber will be the biggest differentiator.
Like you, I'm tempted to look into a second set of wheels. I'll aim to get the lightest set I can that will fit over the brakes. Should mean better performance (lower 0-60 particularly) and greater effiiciency. All depends on what the lease company/insurers have to say, though. I guess it counts as a modification, which they both seem to frown on these days.
Sounds promising and other reports seem to suggest ride quality is not too bad.
True, but I doubt the P+ has stiffer damper valving than the standard car. If it has stiffer springs on the same dampers then it will actually have less damping than the standard car (as the damping ratio will go down). If it is merely lowered by 10 mm, as I suspect is the case, then damping will be the same, but the lower CofG will help the handling a little. No idea if they uprated the anti-roll bars on the P+ but I doubt it.
My extensive motorsport engineering experience and discussing with top level race tyre designers has led me to believe that the optimum sidewall profile is more like 40 or 45 profile and certainly not down at 35! It's basically a trade off between sidewall stiffness, mass, grip and predictable handling on the limit. Ultra-low profile tyres tend to break away more suddenly at the limit with obvious negative consequences. So I would have no worries about fitting 18 or 19" wheels with sticky rubber for ultimate handling on road or track. I think the 20s are taking it too far for just for the sake of marketing cosmetics. But that's what the market demands, so that's where we are!
Lighter is good, providing they don't flex like crazy, but the returns for your cash are going to be very minimal. Light and strong wheels = ££££. By far the biggest influence on your 0-60 will be the road surface i.e. grip level off the line. But yeah, a nice set of forged lightweight 18s or 19s would be nice to have. I don't think brake clearance is a big issue as there are already aftermarket 18s that do fit the P+ brakes. I think the problem is actually related to a revised lip on the hub rather than the physical size of the calipers, but I haven't seen it personally. But there are photos of people fitting even bigger brakes than the P+ in the US, so that backs it up.
andyfox
Member
You might well be right about that one. I've not seen anything to indicate they're different.
On that one, I'll defer to your greater experience. I'd have been quite happy to take the 18" Aeros if Tesla would have allowed me the other bits of the performance pack. Sadly, it's not to be.
That's what I've been reading too. I watched a YouTube video where the guy had to do some machining to get things to fit. Can't seem to find it now.
This also looks interesting:
What is that video supposed to prove? Just driving fast in a straight line from what I can see. Or are you thinking you might actually make use of the higher speed limiter on the P+?
Interesting video, thanks for posting. Pretty sensible mods there. Perhaps worth noting that uk cars appear to be arriving with Michelin PS3 tyres on 18" aeros rather than the lower performing Michelin Primacy, which I think the one on the video had fitted at the start. P+ comes with the Michelin PS3S which is slightly more track focused than the regular PS3, but still not really a dedicated semi-slick track tyre like these guys finished up on. 19" rims look like a great compromise for all round use. Should be some good options out there soon.
Nothing can get close to a P Tesla on public roads due to the crazy 0-60 time, but dare I say it.....Its all a bit too civilised and composed.
If you enjoy a bit of an adrenaline kick for driving fun I still think RWD is key. 37k in driving various Teslas am now really missing some back end wiggling.
I think Tiff gets straight to the point (as usual), the noise/gear changing I don't miss, but I do miss the fun of feeling the car slide out, putting down the power mid corner and feeling the back end do a wiggle, having to actually give the loud pedal respect rather than just treat it like a playstation game pad. Anyone whos driven a good RWD car will know what am on about.
AWD Tesla's are so composed sometimes I even miss my old Leaf, which would understeer and than torque steer and even had some lift off oversteer!! In our X it really is a case of stab the right foot and see how quickly you reach license losing speeds regardless of road condition, weather, adverse camber. The car has so much grip by the time your actually pushing anything close to its limit your travelling so fast and so out of your driving talent zone its the fear of having a multi car accident that than kicks in. But I think thats the same 'issue' with things like GTRs, RWD for the win, as Bjorn would say.
Personally my ideal 3 is LR RWD, P cars are much quicker but I'm now realising a quicker car isn't always the fun car. Its all academic sadly Tesla are refusing to sell that to us at the moment.
If you enjoy a bit of an adrenaline kick for driving fun I still think RWD is key. 37k in driving various Teslas am now really missing some back end wiggling
.I think Tiff gets straight to the point (as usual), the noise/gear changing I don't miss, but I do miss the fun of feeling the car slide out, putting down the power mid corner and feeling the back end do a wiggle, having to actually give the loud pedal respect rather than just treat it like a playstation game pad. Anyone whos driven a good RWD car will know what am on about.
AWD Tesla's are so composed sometimes I even miss my old Leaf, which would understeer and than torque steer and even had some lift off oversteer!! In our X it really is a case of stab the right foot and see how quickly you reach license losing speeds regardless of road condition, weather, adverse camber. The car has so much grip by the time your actually pushing anything close to its limit your travelling so fast and so out of your driving talent zone its the fear of having a multi car accident that than kicks in. But I think thats the same 'issue' with things like GTRs, RWD for the win, as Bjorn would say.
Personally my ideal 3 is LR RWD, P cars are much quicker but I'm now realising a quicker car isn't always the fun car. Its all academic sadly Tesla are refusing to sell that to us at the moment
.Nothing can get close to a P Tesla on public roads due to the crazy 0-60 time, but dare I say it.....Its all a bit too civilised and composed.
If you enjoy a bit of an adrenaline kick for driving fun I still think RWD is key. 37k in driving various Teslas am now really missing some back end wiggling
I think Tiff gets straight to the point (as usual), the noise/gear changing I don't miss, but I do miss the fun of feeling the car slide out, putting down the power mid corner and feeling the back end do a wiggle, having to actually give the loud pedal respect rather than just treat it like a playstation game pad. Anyone whos driven a good RWD car will know what am on about.
AWD Tesla's are so composed sometimes I even miss my old Leaf, which would understeer and than torque steer and even had some lift off oversteer!! In our X it really is a case of stab the right foot and see how quickly you reach license losing speeds regardless of road condition, weather, adverse camber. The car has so much grip by the time your actually pushing anything close to its limit your travelling so fast and so out of your driving talent zone its the fear of having a multi car accident that than kicks in. But I think thats the same 'issue' with things like GTRs, RWD for the win, as Bjorn would say.
Personally my ideal 3 is LR RWD, P cars are much quicker but I'm now realising a quicker car isn't always the fun car. Its all academic sadly Tesla are refusing to sell that to us at the moment
I know what you are saying here, but the Model X is a 2.5 tonne 7-seat SUV. Do you really want sideways action in that thing? I'm just happy that it stays glued to the road when pushing on!
I think the answer is a Model 3 P+ with track mode switched on. I've seen those going pretty sideways on track (don't know why Tiff didn't exploit it?). It's all a bit artificial, but then so it is too with most high powered ICE cars with stability control. I would imagine the stability control in the LR RWD is pretty tame anyway.
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Have Tesla changed the UK spec options again? Unless I'm imagining it I thought that after last big change in the configurator when you selected the Performance option you then also could select the performance pack as an add-on (hence P- and P+ ). But when I look today the Performance option includes the Performance pack - so you can no longer have the 3.2s performance without the 20" wheels?
Maybe I'm just getting confused...
Maybe I'm just getting confused...
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andyfox
Member
I'm thinking you might have been off planet earth for the last couple of weeks.
There has been major uproar, due to the fact that Tesla discontinued the P- with 18" Aeros and also dropped the price of the full fat performance model and included the performance pack and white paint for around a £550 increase on the P- price.
As a result, many of us have been changing P- orders into P+.
They've also re-introduced the LR non-performance model.
It's also caused major chaos for the lease companies, as residuals have all changed and lease prices generally have gone up.
The only lease company to be anywhere near reasonable has been Octopus, who have been allowing customers who've ordered, but not taken delivery, to change their orders with no extra charge. All the others have either locked their customers in (which seems crazy) or insisted on requoting at much higher prices.
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