Model 3 Refresh: How good is it? | TMC Podcast #59

evo9rs · Feb 19, 2024

@18:00 you mention not enough of a difference to switch - I agree. if I owned a M3 now, there is nothing about the Highland that is compelling enough to spend more. given enough of a price difference, I think that I would probably buy a used M3, especially given the used EV tax rebates.

later you guys mentioned the other EV manufacturers, and it made me realize that they really have a major liability. and that is the charging network.

doug · Feb 19, 2024

evo9rs said:
later you guys mentioned the other EV manufacturers, and it made me realize that they really have a major liability. and that is the charging network.

It will be interesting to see how things pan out in 2025,26 if/when all new cars use NACS.

evo9rs · Feb 19, 2024

undoubtedly, a big deal. however, will other non-Teslas be able to use the existing Tesla charging network?

and/or

will a non-Tesla NACS network be built?

PCTAZRichard · Feb 19, 2024

I don't envy manufacturers when it comes to updating products. Make it TOO much better than the previous gen and you alienate your loyal customers. Make it a 'meh' update and you don't attract new customers because you have the same old stuff.
My suspicion is that in the next couple years the refresh will be refreshed 'under the hood' with tech, battery, etc improvements. Tesla has shown it doesn't pay much attention to model years when it comes to implementing new stuff.

doug · Feb 19, 2024

evo9rs said:
will other non-Teslas be able to use the existing Tesla charging network?

and/or

will a non-Tesla NACS network be built?

Yes and yes.

Tesla has already committed to opening up the supercharger network, and some non-Tesla vehicles are using it now with adapters. What's unclear is if Tesla will keep certain locations or even individual stalls Tesla only.

Some months ago Chargepoint said they'd start rolling out NACS support. And with the formalization of the SAE J3400 standard, I'm sure other charging networks will as well. Of course the real issue is not the connector standard, but the ubiquity and reliability of the network.

evo9rs · Feb 19, 2024

doug said:
Yes and yes.

Tesla has already committed to opening up the supercharger network, and some non-Tesla vehicles are using it now with adapters. What's unclear is if Tesla will keep certain locations or even individual stalls Tesla only.

Some months ago Chargepoint said they'd start rolling out NACS support. And with the formalization of the SAE J3400 standard, I'm sure other charging networks will as well. Of course the real issue is not the connector standard, but the ubiquity and reliability of the network.

i hope that Tesla gives itself credit and opens up parts, and just deliberate limited parts, of the Tesla network, to the other manufacturers. they (other OEMs, such as Prosche and Ford) goofed around and found out, and they (the other OEMs) frankly need to invest their own coin into making a separate NACS network. there were a lot of rational actors that looked at the Tesla SC network and that was factor into buying a Tesla. having that "equity" given away at the expense of early adopters' charging access is generous - and I hope is limited up to a very small total amount of network capacity.

put another way, those other OEMs risked neither intellectual nor financial capital. why should their brand have free access to the existing Tesla network?

I'm sure there is a lot of nuance here, where Tesla will get paid for the access that the other OEMs gain (and I hope Tesla does!). but the current Tesla owners / users will paying for the added traffic of off-brand network users, while not getting paid to have to share Tesla SC stalls. i'm guessing Tesla owners bought into a Tesla product in order to have high reliability charging, and high reliability means access to stalls. so, Tesla will have to build a lot more SC stalls (quite expensive) to offset the increased traffic due to off-brand users.

speculation: this sounds like a lot of class action law suits.

if I were Tesla (in the hypothetical singular), I would let the other OEMs create and finance their own network of off-brand only users based on NACS.

SuperPigDots · Feb 22, 2024

evo9rs said:
i hope that Tesla gives itself credit and opens up parts, and just deliberate limited parts, of the Tesla network, to the other manufacturers. they (other OEMs, such as Prosche and Ford) goofed around and found out, and they (the other OEMs) frankly need to invest their own coin into making a separate NACS network. there were a lot of rational actors that looked at the Tesla SC network and that was factor into buying a Tesla. having that "equity" given away at the expense of early adopters' charging access is generous - and I hope is limited up to a very small total amount of network capacity.

put another way, those other OEMs risked neither intellectual nor financial capital. why should their brand have free access to the existing Tesla network?

I'm sure there is a lot of nuance here, where Tesla will get paid for the access that the other OEMs gain (and I hope Tesla does!). but the current Tesla owners / users will paying for the added traffic of off-brand network users, while not getting paid to have to share Tesla SC stalls. i'm guessing Tesla owners bought into a Tesla product in order to have high reliability charging, and high reliability means access to stalls. so, Tesla will have to build a lot more SC stalls (quite expensive) to offset the increased traffic due to off-brand users.

speculation: this sounds like a lot of class action law suits.

if I were Tesla (in the hypothetical singular), I would let the other OEMs create and finance their own network of off-brand only users based on NACS.

I agree with this. Also, I don't know about other parts of the country, but Tesla brand chargers in the L.A./OC county areas are at about max capacity as it is (and more and more people are buying Teslas here). I have the 6 months of free Tesla charging, so I exclusively use them instead of charging at work for a cost. At this point, I have tried about 50% of the L.A. county ones and maybe 20% of OC county's. I am regularly getting to them with only a few stalls left and sometimes have to wait a few minutes. It's even more concerning that Tesla does not seem to be installing new chargers here in this area at a rate that keeps up with their market expansion. There are also major network gaps, like the fact that there is only one small charging site for like a 30 square mile area of west L.A. and West Hollywood (I am not exaggerating). My predictions say that this tax on their network will only get worse... even with Tesla vehicles exclusively using them.

If Tesla opens up their chargers to other brands in a free-for-all fashion, I suspect that their charge network around here would go from strained to absolute madness.

doug · Feb 22, 2024

Hopefully Tesla does things in a way that makes sense. I'm sure there are some gov't supplied financial incentives to open up the network. Also Tesla may charge non-Tesla vehicles at a higher rate per kWh. Could also be useful to invest in some user education.

"6 months of free Tesla charging" sounds like a bad idea to me, though. Would be better if it were a certain about of kWh free charging that doesn't expire (or expires after a couple years). That way, you only use it when you need it. Human behavior is such that most will go out of their way for a use-it-or-lose-it "free" benefit, wasting time when it's actually just easier to charge at home or work.

SuperPigDots · Feb 23, 2024

doug said:
Hopefully Tesla does things in a way that makes sense. I'm sure there are some gov't supplied financial incentives to open up the network. Also Tesla may charge non-Tesla vehicles at a higher rate per kWh. Could also be useful to invest in some user education.

"6 months of free Tesla charging" sounds like a bad idea to me, though. Would be better if it were a certain about of kWh free charging that doesn't expire (or expires after a couple years). That way, you only use it when you need it. Human behavior is such that most will go out of their way for a use-it-or-lose-it "free" benefit, wasting time when it's actually just easier to charge at home or work.

I agree that this benefit is strange for Tesla and probably strains the network where it is offered. But hey, I'm going to use it if it was offered. A few dollars at work per charge vs free omw to or from wherever and only a ~25 minute wait during charge is worth it for me longterm over 6 months. At the end of the 6 months, I'll probably use the work chargers mostly exclusively in my charge routine. I don't have a home charger and I'm not going to have one installed to leave for my slumlord when I move out one day. I figure $450 + electirican fees (probably more than usual to upgrade my ancient electrical system to accommodate the charger) is going to take quite sometime to match the differnece of work charger costs vs home charging costs. Work charging is fine for me, since I usually work 6 - 7 days per week.

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Model 3 Refresh: How good is it? | TMC Podcast #59

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