Model 3 Supercharging Capable Discussion

[ohmman]

If they are looking at costs in comparison to damage caused, then it should be noted that just one 18 wheeler causes the same amount of damage as 9,600 passenger vehicles.

Agree with your whole post, but responding to the above quote, I just want to say that having a road charge program allows for scaling charges at least somewhat more fairly than the status quo. As you note, there's no way to charge a 10,000x premium for mileage driven by 18-wheelers, but once we know the mileage driven, that data will be very useful. It'll be possible to quantify the liability more fairly and at minimum make more people aware of the points you raise.

Currently, we all subsidize it with our taxes, and get it back to some degree on the cost of goods at the supermarket/warehouse store/Amazon/whatever. Obviously if the transportation taxes become higher on shipping vehicles, it will raise prices. However, it will also level the field with other competing transportation methods (rail, as you mention).

I volunteered because I really think a mileage based road charge is the best way forward. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Red Sage]

Supercharging has likely never been free. Whether you pay for it as an additional option, pay per use, or have the cost imbedded in the purchase price of a new car. The cost of this supercharger network has likely always been absorbed by the sale of the cars. If it didn't the network would have gone belly up long ago.

I go a bit further with this notion. I believe that each vehicle purchase literally 'Pays It Forward' to the propagation of the Supercharger network. Meaning, the car you buy doesn't pay for your access -- it pays for the access that future Customers will enjoy. Thus far, Tesla Generation II vehicles have paid for the establishment of the Supercharger Network that Tesla Generation III owners will enjoy. When the Model ☰ arrives, its buyers will pay for a share of the Supercharger network that will be enjoyed by the cars that follow it, such as: Model Y, Model R, Model P, Model Z...

 

[Red Sage]

If the gross margins on the Model 3 at $35,000 is high enough (10%? 15? 20%?), Supercharging will be included. If not, then there will be a nominal-ish charge for access.

...

#DriveFree

Thank you. I LOVE your attitude on this. I agree. If the margin on a base Model ☰ allows for perhaps an 11.4% portion of that amount to be used toward Superchargers, the feature will be included. If not, if there is an almost insignificant margin, 5% or less, then Supercharger access will undoubtedly be an add-on feature. I expect the number would be proportionately about $480 per car, if there is a 12% margin. So, I just round that up to an even $500 as an activation fee, if the margin is 5% or less for the build cost relative to the base price. $1,000 might be acceptable to many, but I still think it would be too high.

 

[alseTrick]

I presume that charger stations have a monitoring system...TV circuits that each and record. I would hope that there would be a system of (letter writing campaign) to identify jerks and send them a nice note that says "please" the first time.
I hope the percentage of jerks remains the same, and the free electrons don't cause them to migrate to chargers.
But - if there are fueling jerks currently at some charging stations, why arnt there the same jerks at gas stations?

1. There ARE jerks at gas stations.

2. Gas stations don't offer free gas.

3. Gas station fill-ups are substantially less time-consuming than electric charger top-offs.

4. There are gas stations in abundance.

All it takes is a little education and some heart from everyone involved.

Naivete won't make the problem "disappear".

 

[Red Sage]

I have been poor, and I have been rich. I have been a jerk sometimes, but mostly I like to think I'm a good guy -even princely at times. I make my decisions mostly on engineering principles and fiscal awareness.
So, as a prospective M3 owner, which camp/class to I belong in?

Hmmm... I would say that... U-DA-MAN!!!

 

[alseTrick]

Ok, Tesla, here is the solution to SC station madness that is about to be underway when the M3 gets on the road in 2017. Shorten the charge times to 5 minutes for a full charge (0% to 90%) for all models, as a standard option, then all problem solved!

Regardless of whether you're being serious or not, wouldn't your bolded part just increase the number of people opting to supercharge instead of home charge?

 

[Red Sage]

Naivete won't make the problem "disappear".

Insistence won't make a nonexistent problem appear either.

 

[Red Sage]

Regardless of whether you're being serious or not, wouldn't your bolded part just increase the number of people opting to supercharge instead of home charge?

Wait... Hunh? What?!?

Having five minute recharging from 0%-to-90%, if possible, would increase the number of people willing to leave ICE for fully electric vehicles. That is actually the point of Tesla Motors very existence. Thus, a good thing.

 

[Red Sage]

"Free" or pre-paid charging probably made sense during the initial buildout of the Superchargers and as part of gaining attention for the Tesla sales pitch but it's bad economics in the long run. It results in all of the shaming around bad charging behavior, motivates bad charging behavior in the first place, and results in irrational charging resource allocation and demand. Basically all of the broken behavior one sees in areas without individual water meters or in countries in the past with non-market-based socialism.

This is all Economics 101 stuff. Every action should carry a price and then individual owners can self-sort the charging behavior that makes sense for them using market pricing and the rest of us can be tolerant of odd choices because we know those owners are "paying the price" for their actions.

Ugh.

 

[Red Sage]

Worse than shrinking heads... he's a mod on an internet forum... He's seen things you people wouldn't believe. Verbal attacks on fire off the shoulder of the SpaceX Sub. He's watched snippiness threads glitter in the forums near the a Model X. All that snippiness will be lost in time, like tears...in...rain.

It's ugly out there man. It's REAL ugly.

Yes, but... Do androids dream of electric sheep?

 

[alseTrick]

Wait... Hunh? What?!?

Having five minute recharging from 0%-to-90%, if possible, would increase the number of people willing to leave ICE for fully electric vehicles. That is actually the point of Tesla Motors very existence. Thus, a good thing.

That literally has nothing to do with my comment.

Insistence won't make a nonexistent problem appear either.

Ah yes. Because there has never been an "etiquette" problem at a supercharger before. And there will never be an etiquette problem in the future, ever.

 

[Red Sage]

I want SC access, on a pay-per-use basis. I don't plan on using it enough to justify even a nominal $2000 upfront charge, maybe once or twice a year, but when I want to use it I've got no problem paying.

I really wish people would stop saying this. Oh, and a 'nominal charge' would be $500 or less up front -- not twice the Reservation amount. Think of it this way... How much gasoline could you buy for a BMW 320i for $500, and how far would that take you?

 

[Red Sage]

That literally has nothing to do with my comment.

It had EVERYTHING to do with your comment. Go back and look at the post you quoted.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That literally has nothing to do with my comment.

Ah yes. Because there has never been an "etiquette" problem at a supercharger before. And there will never be an etiquette problem in the future, ever.

You beat me to similar responses to Red Sage twice.

First part is:
Ignoratio elenchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second part is that the problem is certainly not nonexistent. You can argue insignificant (depending on your opinion, although it was significant enough for Elon to mention it last year and Tesla to issue letters), but not nonexistent.

 

[alseTrick]

It had EVERYTHING to do with your comment. Go back and look at the post you quoted.

No, it literally had nothing to do with my comment. And I mean the original, literal use of the word *literally*.

 

[Red Sage]

The way Washington State has started dealing with the lost of gas taxes is to charge an extra annual fee for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles which is $100 currently that goes to $150 effective July 2016.

I think Georgia made it a $200 fee or something like that. I looked up their gasoline taxes once. Compared to another vehicle in the Large Luxury class, that amount would be more than you would pay toward road fees in any of the gas guzzlers in a typical 12,000-to-15,000 miles of annual driving.

 

[Red Sage]

No, it literally had nothing to do with my comment. And I mean the original, literal use of the word *literally*.

Your comment was thoroughly and completely incorrect. So is this one.

 

[alseTrick]

Your comment was thoroughly and completely incorrect. So is this one.

I'm going to let you continue doing your thing. Fortunately, I won't ever have to read it again.

 

[Red Sage]

Thanks for the link. Here's the direct quote for reference:
"Obviously, [free Supercharging] fundamentally has a cost. [...] The obvious thing to do is decouple that from the cost of the Model 3. So it will still be very cheap, and far cheaper than gasoline, to drive long-distance with the Model 3, but it will not be free long distance for life unless you purchase that package. I wish we could, but in order to achieve the economics, it has to be something like that."

This statement is so vague it really allows for all the schemes mentioned here (including multi-use "packages" or pay per use), even though he does separately imply a "free long distance for life" package.

I've not seen or heard the 2016 shareholder meeting yet. But assuming this was transcribed correctly, I believe the key words are 'for life'. I've mentioned this possibility a few times. Supercharger access may well be Free, for a limited time (1-to-5 years) or for a limited amount of uses to 'try it out', even for Model ☰ owners who get the base version. But getting unlimited access for all time would require a fee for the 'FREE for LIFE' package, unless you purchased a higher trim (ie higher capacity battery pack) vehicle that had 'FREE for LIFE' access included.

 

[wdolson]

The way Washington State has started dealing with the lost of gas taxes is to charge an extra annual fee for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles which is $100 currently that goes to $150 effective July 2016.

Other states are charging extra registration fees for EVs too. I believe Washington raised the fee to $150 in 2015, not this year.

What Washington is charging for EVs is very regressive. You pay a high rate regardless of how many miles you drive a year. You pay the equivalent tax as you would for 337 gallons of gas a year. Some people buy that much, but I don't.