Model S - Changes over the past 3 years

[cucubits]

Well, this is something.
I never thought I'd be back here.

I sold my 2016 facelift AP1 Model S about 3 years ago and I remember having quite the list of things I didn't like about it and how badly I wanted to get rid of it. I bought a really nice ICE car but slowly I keep forgetting about that list and I miss more and more my Model S. So here we are.

I was completely away from Tesla for these 3 years so I can honestly say I know nothing about the recent year's Models.

If, theoretically, I were to search for a used Model S again, I'd like to know a few details.

- thinking about something post 2020, when did they upgrade the headlights to projectors and not the disco ball LEDs that were in the older ones?
- do all recent years come with adjustable air suspension?
- a very high level list of known issues, things to watch out for, things/years to stay away from?
- does Tesla still have some sort of pre-owned warranty if buying used from them? I know they kept changing and reducing the length of this in the past.
- is EV-CPO still a thing for searching used models?
- what's a realistic price range on the current market that I should expect. Oh I can't believe I'm asking this, I used to know so well the used values a few years ago
- dare I even ask about FSD? I don't want to poke the bears who were saying it's going to be out in a few years. I was always skeptical and sure it would get nowhere so early, so what's the deal now?
- are all recent Model S batteries the same size? I know back when I was here, we had the 75, 90, 100... are all 100s now?
- yoke! I want it! I've sat in a new S in a showroom and it's awesome. I know it's a love/hate thing but for now I'll stick to "I want one"! What year did they start introducing them?

Anything else worth knowing given the list above?
Thanks!

 

[cucubits]

Allright, I'll start to answer some of my own questions

-If I do end up on this route, I'm very firmly set on getting the refresh. I see the cars with the new interior started to come out sometimes in 2021. Still searching for the exact Month when the change was made. This alone answers a few of the questions above.

-EV-CPO seems to still work so I'll keep an eye on it. Not that many Model S-es though.

-price range for a 2021 refresh, I don't know yet, I have a feeling upper 50s, lower 60s is the current deal. I might be wrong.

I'm not in a rush but the more I wait, the more my ICE car looses its value, so ideally, if I get approval from "upper management", I'd do the swap this year.

 

[cjk130]

I'll give you my two cents. I wanted to go from my ICE car into a performance Model-S at the beginning of the year, and started doing all my research on what Model-S to get. I was looking at 3 different generations;

2021 "Refresh" aka Plaid
I knew I DIDN'T want this. I'd love the 1020hp, but there are so many cons that made it an instant no go for me.
1) I didn't want the Yoke. If you haven't driven one, try it. I hear most people miss the turning and gripping of a full steering wheel. Not to mention the leather on the yokes where off badly in a year or two.
2) The Refreshes tried to be too minimalistic. Turn signal stalk; gone. Gear selector stalk gone, windshield wipers on a stalk gone, horn not in the center of the yoke, etc. Seriously, go test drive any new tesla model and try to get use to button turn signals, etc. There's literally aftermarket stalks coming out because people still want them.
3) I don't like the floating center screen that just sticks out. Not a fan. I wanted the vertical in-dash 17" screen. Just looks cleaner. I even wanted the old school manual adjusting air vents. The refresh tries to be slick with this too.
4) The screen for the back seat is pointless. A waste or Tesla just trying to add more tech.
5) There is an 80page thread about Refresh's on 21" tires where the tires wear out after 8k miles. Or you need aftermarket toe/camber bars. No thank you, I didn't want this problem either.
6) I'm not a fan of the 21" Arachnid rims
7) Also Plaids are more to insure because of the 1020hp, newer car, etc.

2019/2018 P100DL
I was kind of dead set on the P100D. This was the fastest tesla car before the plaid, I had wanted one for years, so this was what I was dead set on. 778hp, ludacris plus mode. Some cons in this era:
1) The 17" in dash screen can develop a yellow border around them due to the adhesive pulling apart. It supposedly could be fixed by Tesla with a UV light method.
2) The front daytime running light led halo's can start to go bad, fade to yellow and then burn out.
3) It has the traditional air suspension. While good, I heard the ride on 21" wheels was very rough. People either upgraded to other 20" rims or the oem 19". 21" rims also weigh more, slightly less performance. I liked the looks of the 21" rims, but was still torn.
4) Watch the manufacturing date for MC1 vs MC2. I'd only get a car with the newer MC2.
5) I didn't want a sunroof, heard of leaking issues with seals over time. So this limited my search as a lot had sunroofs.

2019/2020 Model-S Performance/Raven
All my research led to me discover the Raven generation. This is basically a P100D, but with several newer features. So it still have the same 778hp ludacris plus. But the front motor was a newer magnet motor, which enabled one pedal driving; aka the front motor can slow the car down to a complete stop without using the brakes. I heard this was great, and wanted this.
Also new was the adaptive air suspension, which gave a much better ride. I watched a youtube analysis of a raven model-s on 21" had a much smoother ride (they used a gyro to measure bumps and feeling of a passenger) than an air suspension p100d on the smoother 19" tires. This sold me as well because I really wanted 21" wheels.
And I wanted the 21" sonic carbon rims, not the 2021+ Refresh/Plaid 21" Arachnid rims.

And I still got everything else I wanted; full steering wheel, stalks for turn signals and drive modes, horn, in-dash 17" screen. All Ravens are full glass roof and all are MC2 which was great for me.

Another thread discussing P100D's vs Raven's

2018 P100D vs 2019 Performance (raven) which to buy?

Hello everybody, Long time listener 1st time caller: I'm looking for some advice. I am looking to buy a Model S. All my searching and research has lead me to a couple different options. I'm looking at 2017-2018 P100D (with ludicrous) Vs 2019 Performance (raven) also with ludicrous. The...

teslamotorsclub.com

One big downside of pre-refresh performance Model-S's is the large drive unit in the back can/will develop a coolant leak internally. There are some after market fixes, or tesla is fixing it under the 8 year battery/drivetrain warranty. Either way, I didn't quite know about his before hand. Even with this, I still want a Raven over a 2021+ Refresh/Plaid.


There are TONS of used 2021+ Refresh/Plaids for sale. Double of those compare to Ravens I could find during my searching. I think for a combination of reasons; people didn't like the rear tire wear issues, people bought too high/over their head, people didn't like the yokes, etc. Back in Feb/March of 2024, Plaids were going for the low 60's to mid 70's I'd say.


Anyways that's my two cents. Maybe some other veterans will chime in here as well.

 

[cucubits]

I'll give you my two cents.

Thank you! This is very much appreciated. Exactly the sort of info I was looking for.

 

[dmurphy]

I’m about to trade in my S Refresh LR (2021) on a R1S Friday. Low $40s was the best offer I could find. Car’s yours if you want it by then and match the tradein.

 

[cucubits]

I'll give you my two cents. I wanted to go from my ICE car into a performance Model-S at the beginning of the year, and started doing all my research on what Model-S to get. I was looking at 3 different generations;

2021 "Refresh" aka Plaid
I knew I DIDN'T want this. I'd love the 1020hp, but there are so many cons that made it an instant no go for me.
1) I didn't want the Yoke. If you haven't driven one, try it. I hear most people miss the turning and gripping of a full steering wheel. Not to mention the leather on the yokes where off badly in a year or two.

I've heard about the leather going bad. I'm not dead set on it but I do like it. I've sat in a showroom S and it felt good. Haven't driven one yet.

2) The Refreshes tried to be too minimalistic. Turn signal stalk; gone. Gear selector stalk gone, windshield wipers on a stalk gone, horn not in the center of the yoke, etc. Seriously, go test drive any new tesla model and try to get use to button turn signals, etc. There's literally aftermarket stalks coming out because people still want them.

I will have to drive one for sure and I was also very adamant on having at least some physical controls but I've grown to like the screen on my 2016 S and most of the buttons on my current ICE car are touch as well. The turn signals do seem funky to say the least. The horn as well. I have to use the horn with all the knuckleheads in WA traffic.

3) I don't like the floating center screen that just sticks out. Not a fan. I wanted the vertical in-dash 17" screen. Just looks cleaner. I even wanted the old school manual adjusting air vents. The refresh tries to be slick with this too.

I'm not partial towards any of the two designs and I liked the vertical 17'' for sure, but I really disliked the lack of a proper center console on the 2016. The factory one was just too low.

4) The screen for the back seat is pointless. A waste or Tesla just trying to add more tech.

Indeed. Haven't considered that but it's just another thing that's very rarely used.

5) There is an 80page thread about Refresh's on 21" tires where the tires wear out after 8k miles. Or you need aftermarket toe/camber bars. No thank you, I didn't want this problem either.

Oh I saw some posts about this. I was hoping it's not wide spread. This is not good.

6) I'm not a fan of the 21" Arachnid rims
7) Also Plaids are more to insure because of the 1020hp, newer car, etc.

You're right, I hadn't considered insurance. On top of that, WA yearly registration is crazy expensive compared to what I've been used to in TX.
For giggles: in TX I'd pay I think $70 per year for any car any year. Here in WA, first year I had to pay over $700 ! for a 2022 Macan. Taxes are crazy here and it's really stupid. They roads/highways are not better, not well maintained, traffic is just as bad and petrol is among the most expensive in the US.

2019/2018 P100DL
I was kind of dead set on the P100D. This was the fastest tesla car before the plaid, I had wanted one for years, so this was what I was dead set on. 778hp, ludacris plus mode. Some cons in this era:
1) The 17" in dash screen can develop a yellow border around them due to the adhesive pulling apart. It supposedly could be fixed by Tesla with a UV light method.

I know about the adhesive leak. I got lucky back with my 2016 that it didn't get that.

2) The front daytime running light led halo's can start to go bad, fade to yellow and then burn out.

Yup, had this too. Mobile service replaced my headlight a couple times under warranty.

3) It has the traditional air suspension. While good, I heard the ride on 21" wheels was very rough. People either upgraded to other 20" rims or the oem 19". 21" rims also weigh more, slightly less performance. I liked the looks of the 21" rims, but was still torn.
4) Watch the manufacturing date for MC1 vs MC2. I'd only get a car with the newer MC2.
5) I didn't want a sunroof, heard of leaking issues with seals over time. So this limited my search as a lot had sunroofs.

2019/2020 Model-S Performance/Raven
All my research led to me discover the Raven generation. This is basically a P100D, but with several newer features. So it still have the same 778hp ludacris plus. But the front motor was a newer magnet motor, which enabled one pedal driving; aka the front motor can slow the car down to a complete stop without using the brakes. I heard this was great, and wanted this.
Also new was the adaptive air suspension, which gave a much better ride. I watched a youtube analysis of a raven model-s on 21" had a much smoother ride (they used a gyro to measure bumps and feeling of a passenger) than an air suspension p100d on the smoother 19" tires. This sold me as well because I really wanted 21" wheels.

Yes! These two should have gone on my must have list. One pedal driving and adaptive suspension. I value a smooth ride over other features.

And I wanted the 21" sonic carbon rims, not the 2021+ Refresh/Plaid 21" Arachnid rims.

And I still got everything else I wanted; full steering wheel, stalks for turn signals and drive modes, horn, in-dash 17" screen. All Ravens are full glass roof and all are MC2 which was great for me.

Another thread discussing P100D's vs Raven's

2018 P100D vs 2019 Performance (raven) which to buy?

Hello everybody, Long time listener 1st time caller: I'm looking for some advice. I am looking to buy a Model S. All my searching and research has lead me to a couple different options. I'm looking at 2017-2018 P100D (with ludicrous) Vs 2019 Performance (raven) also with ludicrous. The...

teslamotorsclub.com

One big downside of pre-refresh performance Model-S's is the large drive unit in the back can/will develop a coolant leak internally. There are some after market fixes, or tesla is fixing it under the 8 year battery/drivetrain warranty. Either way, I didn't quite know about his before hand. Even with this, I still want a Raven over a 2021+ Refresh/Plaid.

This internal leak is a bit concerning but if they keep honoring the 8 year warranty, it should be ok for now.

There are TONS of used 2021+ Refresh/Plaids for sale. Double of those compare to Ravens I could find during my searching. I think for a combination of reasons; people didn't like the rear tire wear issues, people bought too high/over their head, people didn't like the yokes, etc. Back in Feb/March of 2024, Plaids were going for the low 60's to mid 70's I'd say.


Anyways that's my two cents. Maybe some other veterans will chime in here as well.

Again, I appreciate the insight.

A Raven might make more sense. I would like the refresh but probably the teething issues and higher price will make it less appealing.

 

[cucubits]

I’m about to trade in my S Refresh LR (2021) on a R1S Friday. Low $40s was the best offer I could find. Car’s yours if you want it by then and match the tradein.

Nooo
I can't make the move this fast. I need some more research time and a good plan to convince my wife this is a good idea. It took me so long to convince her my current ICE car would be a good idea, now I have to undo all that work

 

[pikeshadow]

I’m about to trade in my S Refresh LR (2021) on a R1S Friday. Low $40s was the best offer I could find. Car’s yours if you want it by then and match the tradein.

I’m interested!
This is exactly what I’m lookin for. Please PM me so we can talk details.

 

[pikeshadow]

Or shoot me a text…(I realize this probably looks sketchy for a first post!) five 1 tree, five 5 zero, 1 seven nine Quattro.

I drove a friend’s model 3 last week, then went to the local Tesla store last weekend and drove a MSLR and MYLR…I’m hooked. I sold my truck yesterday and am ready to grab a Refresh MSLR.

 

[cjk130]

Again, I appreciate the insight.

A Raven might make more sense. I would like the refresh but probably the teething issues and higher price will make it less appealing.

A few other things I thought of I forgot to add:

Raven better than P100D
-The Raven generation had the "cheetah mode" introduced when in ludacris plus.

Raven sensors vs Refresh sensors
The Raven generation had the Ultrasonic sensors for detecting objects around it . For the 2021+ Refresh generation, they went with Tesla vision. Many threads consider this a down grade, that the Tesla vision isn't as good as the ultrasonic sensors.

Tesla Vision Update: Replacing Ultrasonic Sensors with Tesla Vision | Tesla Support

Safety is at the core of our design and engineering decisions. In 2021, we began our transition to Tesla Vision by removing radar from Model 3 and Model Y, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Today, in most regions around the globe, these vehicles now rely on Tesla Vision, our camera-based...

www.tesla.com

2021+ Plaid better than the Raven.
One feature I'd kill to have in the Raven generation is the Track mode option. It's only available on the plaids. There's no reason it couldn't be on the Raven's, it's just one reason for Tesla to force people into the newer model. I always loved have the ability in my ICE rear wheel drive car to turn off traction control and drift the rear end out a little on some wet payment. I'd love to have that option to do it in the Tesla. But not in the Raven generation. Oh well, I'll manage.

Model S Owner's Manual | Tesla

Understand how to use Track mode to optimize performance when driving on a closed circuit race track.

www.tesla.com

 

[cucubits]

The Raven generation had the Ultrasonic sensors for detecting objects around it . For the 2021+ Refresh generation, they went with Tesla vision. Many threads consider this a down grade, that the Tesla vision isn't as good as the ultrasonic sensors.

oh I'm deep in that camp as well. I firmly believe moving to vision only was a mistake. I remember back when my AP1 75D would perform way more reliably on autopilot than the newer year's AP2 cars.

Looks like they are still not moving in the right direction sadly.

 

[cucubits]

Starting to get a more clear picture.
Indeed as much as I'd like a refresh interior, there are just too many (potential) issues and significantly higher price over a Raven.
If I got this right, Ravens came out around April 2019.

Now, I don't really care about if going That fast but I'm not sure if Raven's came with the small (Long Range) rear motor or I would must find one with the (internal leak prone) large rear motor.

 

[cucubits]

Looking at the used 2020 Model S-es being sold from tesla. They all have the minimum default description as always.
Is there a way to tell if one is Raven? There's no front motor description and nothing about the suspension in their specs on tesla.com.
Can we tell from the VIN?

 

[cjk130]

Looking at the used 2020 Model S-es being sold from tesla. They all have the minimum default description as always.
Is there a way to tell if one is Raven? There's no front motor description and nothing about the suspension in their specs on tesla.com.
Can we tell from the VIN?

Seems like it's a combination of year, name and 0-60mph.
I searched a popular zip code like San Jose 94088. Selecting "Model S Performance", not "Model S Plaid" (the newer refresh 2021+ line up)

There's a 2018 100D Ludicrous Performance All-Wheel Drive. 0-60 2.4 seconds. This is a 2018 P100D.
There are four "Model S Performance All-Wheel Drive" with a 0-60 2.3 seconds. These look like the performance Ravens.

I'm not sure about the 2019 Model S Performance All Wheel Drive, 85,486 miles, 0-60 in 3 seconds. It doesn't look like this is a long range model since it says performance model in the listing. But maybe they are saying with degraded battery and motors at 85k miles, then it's an estimate 3.0 seconds for the 0-60 time.

 

[cucubits]

So are all Ravens only performance cars - as in all have the large rear motor?
Let me ask a different way, are there any Raven Model S-es sold as Long Range? With small rear motor but the same suspension and front motor changes?

 

[Krash]

So are all Ravens only performance cars - as in all have the large rear motor?
Let me ask a different way, are there any Raven Model S-es sold as Long Range? With small rear motor but the same suspension and front motor changes?

No, Ravens are not just performance models. All S/X from the date of raven release have raven front motors.