Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[Ulmo]

Once again, you are dealing with a place that cars shouldn’t be driving in to begin with. Do you blame Caltrain for every car that flew off the road and into an embankment? The same with the homeless woman that was hit by the uber car, how about not crossing the street when cars are coming...


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There's always an appologist for the establishment. Next thing I expect to hear from them is that no one should drive on Hwy 17, we shouldn't drive in the rain, and no one should cross the street between intersections, and to accept China as our new overlords, with foreigners running the local branch of government, and it's us citizens that should feel guilty.

 

[mongo]

Once again, you are dealing with a place that cars shouldn’t be driving in to begin with. Do you blame Caltrain for every car that flew off the road and into an embankment?

Tl;dr; If a road authority knows that a location needs an attenuator (or any other type of safety measure) then leaving that location without one is dangerous and negligent.

I don't know of anyone disagreeing that the car should not have been there. The discussion is about minimum levels of safety regarding the location.

To address your hypothetical, if Caltrans built a freeway with curves tighter than national standard that would be their engineering prerogative and having built a tighter than design standard curve, appropriate signage would be their responsibility. If the curve was adjacent to a non-navigable slope, the installation of barriers would be their responsibility. When installing the barriers, lapping the section such that the edges face away from traffic is their responsibility.

If Caltrans built a road with a tight, unsigned, unbarriered curve next to a ravine and people crashed into the ravine, yes I'd blame Caltrans.

Back to the case at hand. Designing a left side exit that places a gore point on a highway is their engineering choice. Designing vehicle protection due to that design decision is their responsibility. Having selected a system to protect vehicles from their engineering choice, maintaining it is their responsibility.

In this case, the un-reset barrier is possibly worse than no barrier at all. It provides less impact area and is just as non compliant as the concrete. If protection is needed in this spot, and the barrier is not able to be reset, they should park a truck mounted attenuator in the run up area until it is repaired (the same type of truck they should have in position for the crew inspecting/ repairing the barrier). Alternatively, they could move other attenuator devices into place.

 

[TEG]

I think the direction change was more abrupt at impact, If the liquid in #134 is the path. It could also just be the runoff direction.

I think basically all of that liquid seen in the later pictures were from fire department activities. I don't think you can tell anything about what happened in the crash from looking at the liquids in the later pictures.

 

[TEG]

...
In this case, the un-reset barrier is possibly worse than no barrier at all. It provides less impact area and is just as non compliant as the concrete. If protection is needed in this spot, and the barrier is not able to be reset, they should park a truck mounted attenuator in the run up area until it is repaired (the same type of truck they should have in position for the crew inspecting/ repairing the barrier). Alternatively, they could move other attenuator devices into place.

I did see one Streetview with such a truck there once. It seemed to be to protect workers in the area.

I have to assume they don't have enough of those to leave one there other times when barrier is impacted, and no workers are on site.

 

[Ulmo]

Even in old Streetview pic it looks like someone was confused about that not being a lane:

View attachment 288665

Let's hope this wasn't a new autopilot mistake.

TEG, look at that picture: the painted lane directs you directly into that barrier, as if they want to murder drivers. The yellow line should be moved to the left, and the lane should be seperate from 101 far earlier, with all drivers directed straight into the onramp, not straight into the barrier. There shouldn't be an abrupt jagged edge on that ramp as if it is some sort of obstacle course; it should be a clean entry into 85. 85 is one of the gentlest roads in existence in the area; there's no reason getting onto it should be some weirdass herky jerky. There's no excuse for that yellow line to be so far right. There are many people merging and leaving there, so you have to look around, and don't have time to be following crazy ass squiggly painted lane markings as if that's how they want us to drive on a freeway.

 

[mongo]

Great analysis by TMC moderator TEC shows that the Tesla crash and death is 100% the result of negligence by CalTrans, resulting from bad lane markings and a non-functioning safety barrier:


Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)


Here is a similar case, which NTSB determined was a result of bad lane markings:


San Jose: Fatal Greyhound bus crash blamed on poor road markings


Even if Tesla Autopilot was on it won't be found to have been the cause of the crash.

Caltrans deffinately has responsibility, but they were not driving the car, so 100% seems a bit high. The accident resulted from the driver changing lanes too late (per witness report). Caltrans signage is not good, but still driver's decision. Being a fatality is high linked to the barrier not being functional.

 

[Ulmo]

I don't believe that AP would have any kind of confusion in that area. I drive there all the time on my PM commute, but at that time the traffic is usually <35mph in the carpool lanes. The lanes are extremely clearly marked on both sides of that barrier. There are many other areas of the 101 around Palo Alto I wouldn't trust AP with, but this area is one I would have no problem letting AP handle.

This is a perfect example of very high population of people who all experience similar things, but details matter: the fact you usually see it at 35MPH probably makes it different from those travelling when it is closer to 65MPH.

 

[mongo]

I think basically all of that liquid seen in the later pictures were from fire department activities. I don't think you can tell anything about what happened in the crash from looking at the liquids in the later pictures.

The one in #134 is from before the fire or suppression activities. Post fire there is the trail of absorbent seen in a rear shot which may be part of the same trail.

 

[Ulmo]

KTVU just did a brief story on the accident with more the focus on the firefighters not wanting to touch the car until Tesla arrived (said they are learning...actually shocked that fire fighters in this area don't go through training classes on this). They showed Tesla engineers taking the batteries and soaking them in some solution in a blue plastic tub. That was interesting. Chances are this is what they will reair at 5pm.

They did mention that the driver had died.

To me, putting out EV fires ought to be fire basics. This is unacceptable for our fire departments.

 

[TEG]

I am concerned with signage, lane markings, and disabled safety equipment, but I don't assign "blame" to anyone.

We don't (currently) know if autopilot or driver was controlling the vehicle. We don't know all the possible circumstances that led to the crash. He could have been pushed into the gore area by another car, blown a tire, many possibilities. And do keep in mind that most drivers manage to get through that mess without hitting anything. It seems like an unsafe area, but the driver or autopilot still needs to be able to cope with it.

 

[mongo]

To me, putting out EV fires ought to be fire basics. This is unacceptable for our fire departments.

Agree that EV training should be on the docket of all metro fire departments. That said, the driver was already out of the car. No reason to rush. In some cases, there might be something for Tesla to learn from before the dousing.

 

[Ulmo]

Wow! I cannot understand why there is not a white (at a minimum, yellow would be better) cross hatch/ diagonal/chevron "don't drive here" paint job for the lane to nowhere.
We have markings like that picture where you are not supposed to change lanes.

Exactly.

 

[Ulmo]

Oh and Mongo you just reminded me of something.. Last June, I was trying to pull out of a parking lot and make a left turn. The X would not let me do it because it thought I would have run into a car coming from right to left on the other side of the street. In reality I would not have hit it because there as a WIDE center lane for merging. A car coming from the left could have hit me if it one was coming. It was almost like the X stalled. I could not override it with pressing accelerator. I reported that incident.

I had a similar problem in my AP2 Model S; the car stalled in oncoming traffic due to it thinking I would go further than I was preparing to go. I was lucky it allowed me to go after and avoid being hit.

 

[SMAlset]

Saw this post link on Reddit (TheSocialAndrew). It's a very clear dashcam video of someone traveling this section back on 12/19/17. You'll see exactly what happens at this highway juncture probably many times a day. This video was filmed in the afternoon not during rush hour traffic. BTW the video above does show the barrier was reset on that date.

20171219_134710A - Streamable

IMO it's just a poor design to have two lanes of cars traveling at highway speed in those lanes and having the lane separation so close to the barrier where it's still possible to switch over at that point. In morning or evening rush hour traffic when those lanes are moving along, it's particularly hazardous due to the volume of cars using the lanes. This merging behavior should be anticipated and smart design would do more to prevent. Wonder if anyone objected when this layout was proposed.

So the possibility exists that our Tesla driver got himself caught in between two lanes of traffic at the last minute like this white vehicle did.

 

[timvracer]

why accidents happen... why couldn't this driver let the guy in??? IF this driver was paying attention, it was obvious the white car was going to head over. Rather than letting him in, he forces the car in the middle, the truck has to veer out of the way...

Some folks are far more concerned with their "right to the road" than trying to understand sometimes people make mistakes. Give them a break and save a life maybe.

Saw this post link on Reddit. Video isn't playing too well for me halts every so many frames but does play (bandwidth or traffic congestion on streamable site?), but it's very clear dashcam video of someone traveling this section back on 12/19/17. You'll see exactly what happens at this highway juncture probably many times a day. This video was filmed in the afternoon not during rush hour traffic.

20171219_134710A - Streamable

IMO it's just a poor design to have two lanes of cars traveling at highway speed in those lanes and having the lane separation so close to the barrier where it's still possible to switch over at that point. In morning or evening rush hour traffic when those lanes are moving along, it's particularly hazardous due to the volume of cars using the lanes. This merging behavior should be anticipated and smart design would do more to prevent. Wonder if anyone objected when this layout was proposed.

So the possibility exists that our Tesla driver got himself caught in between two lanes of traffic at the last minute like this white vehicle did.

 

[TEG]

Saw this post link on Reddit (TheSocialAndrew). Video isn't playing too well for me halts every so many frames but does play (bandwidth or traffic congestion on streamable site?), but it's very clear dashcam video of someone traveling this section back on 12/19/17. You'll see exactly what happens at this highway juncture probably many times a day. This video was filmed in the afternoon not during rush hour traffic.

20171219_134710A - Streamable

IMO it's just a poor design to have two lanes of cars traveling at highway speed in those lanes and having the lane separation so close to the barrier where it's still possible to switch over at that point. In morning or evening rush hour traffic when those lanes are moving along, it's particularly hazardous due to the volume of cars using the lanes. This merging behavior should be anticipated and smart design would do more to prevent. Wonder if anyone objected when this layout was proposed.

So the possibility exists that our Tesla driver got himself caught in between two lanes of traffic at the last minute like this white vehicle did.

Yikes! The white car gets stuck between two cars on either side and is forced into the gore area. Someone is honking.

The white car was slowing down to try to figure out what to do, and the other cars didn't want to slow so just boxed it in the middle.

In a way it looks like the white car wanted to get off of the 85 exit and move back to the 101, but the Model S driver may be the one that honked and scared the white car into the gore area.

There may be a tendency to honk and not slow down in a situation like that because the car with the dashcam is like "hey buddy, you are trying to cross a solid white line - get back in your lane!".

 

[SMAlset]

TEG did you notice the barrier was reset in this day. I edited my post to include this fact.

Also did you hear like a thump? Wonder what that was from. Maybe the white car clipped or got clipped by the gray SUV that was in the 85 HOV? Don't see the white car after that point while the gray SUV continues up the 85 ramp.

 

[FlatSix911]

Saw this post link on Reddit (TheSocialAndrew). It's a very clear dashcam video of someone traveling this section back on 12/19/17. You'll see exactly what happens at this highway juncture probably many times a day. This video was filmed in the afternoon not during rush hour traffic. BTW the video above does show the barrier was reset on that date.

20171219_134710A - Streamable

IMO it's just a poor design to have two lanes of cars traveling at highway speed in those lanes and having the lane separation so close to the barrier where it's still possible to switch over at that point. In morning or evening rush hour traffic when those lanes are moving along, it's particularly hazardous due to the volume of cars using the lanes. This merging behavior should be anticipated and smart design would do more to prevent. Wonder if anyone objected when this layout was proposed.

So the possibility exists that our Tesla driver got himself caught in between two lanes of traffic at the last minute like this white vehicle did.

Good video ... this is probably what happened to the Tesla just before the impact with the barrier

 

[mongo]

why accidents happen... why couldn't this driver let the guy in??? IF this driver was paying attention, it was obvious the white car was going to head over. Rather than letting him in, he forces the car in the middle, the truck has to veer out of the way...

Some folks are far more concerned with their "right to the road" than trying to understand sometimes people make mistakes. Give them a break and save a life maybe.

Just watched it 8 times. White car hit the brakes before starting the lane change, then saw the car with dash cam hit the brakes and still moved to the right. Based on brake lights behind it, it was braking before that. Also no turn signals. White car was driving poorly (may have been new car test drive). Dash cam car would have had to slam on brakes to let them in. White would have been fine if they used the accelerator instead of brake (Or no brake).

 

[TEG]

Good video ... this is probably what happened to the Tesla just before the impact with the barrier

I would say possibly rather than probably, but yeah...