More about handicapped spots at Superchargers

[markb1]

Nevermind I did re-read, and there are indeed 4 ChargePoint spaces.

I re-assert that it is wasteful to build ev infrastructure that 25% of it is dedicated to handicap. You may thing it’s morally wrong to think this, but I’d argue we have a stronger moral obligation to build renewable infrastructure first.

Makes sense to dedicate handicap spots once you have 20-30 chargers, not 3-4.

Maybe they should make the law so you have to have the charger accessible by both a normal spot and a handicap spot so that the infrastructure is well utilized and handicap spots are available for charging.

So it looks like rules are different for small and large charging stations:

Identification for accessibility

Installations of 1-4 EVCS
- No identification signs required
- While an accessible EV space is designed for
accessibility, its use is available to everyone and not limited to those with access license plates or placards

Installations of 5-25 EVCS
- One van accessible EV space shall be identified with an
ISA; the standard accessible EV space shall not be required to be identified with an ISA

https://www.apta.com/mc/sustainability/previous/2017sustainability/presentations/Presentations/EVCS Access California New Accessibility Regulations for Electric Vehicle Charging Stations - Ida Clair.pdf

 

[ParadigmGuy]

Nevermind I did re-read, and there are indeed 4 ChargePoint spaces.

I re-assert that it is wasteful to build ev infrastructure that 25% of it is dedicated to handicap. You may thing it’s morally wrong to think this, but I’d argue we have a stronger moral obligation to build renewable infrastructure first.

Makes sense to dedicate handicap spots once you have 20-30 chargers, not 3-4.

Maybe they should make the law so you have to have the charger accessible by both a normal spot and a handicap spot so that the infrastructure is well utilized and handicap spots are available for charging.

There are 12 Tesla SC spots, one of them is for disabled parking only. The non-Tesla spots don't factor into this.

 

[mociaf9]

I've charged at two locations with disabled access spaces. Neither one is "exclusively" for disabled, they ask you to use that spot last.

Yeah, it sometimes depends on state rules or how the local jurisdiction interprets the building rules whether the accessible EVCS is required to be permanently reserved or just as "use last".

 

[markb1]

Yeah, it sometimes depends on state rules or how the local jurisdiction interprets the building rules whether the accessible EVCS is required to be permanently reserved or just as "use last".

And I think it's changed in California in the last few years. The rules I cited at the beginning of this thread weren't in place when the Qualcomm supercharger was built, and the city had its own rules, which resulted in the "use last" space. (There was actually a comedy of errors, where they tried to build a proper handicapped space, but it made it impossible for one of the supercharger cables to be used! So they took advantage of the city rules to restripe and make a space that wouldn't quite meet ADA standards, but allowed every charging cable to be used.)

(Note: This thread was the result of moderator action, and these posts were originally in the context of the Del Sur, San Diego supercharger. Inexplicable, that context has been lost.)

 

[Ulmo]

It's a good thing they paved that one area in order to support a disabled access charging stall. It leads right to that excellent staircase. /s

Lol. That's a great example of how sometimes rules get enforced in somewhat nonsensical ways. Anyone who has the agility to make it up the stairs, doesn't really need the paved area. Anyone who needs the paved area, almost certainly can't make it up the stairs.

Fully agreed. I'll be generous and accept that there may be edge cases where a less-dynamically-abled person may have strange angles for their landing gear that could slide out in a nice loose rock bed that wouldn't slide out on a hard flat and ugly concrete surface. It's criminal and immoral that "handicapped requirements" are uglifying our world; technology such as the iBot can let those people go up or down any hill, so we don't need to erase hills; seriously, stop erasing hills! I don't want to live in flat areas; if anyone wants to live in flat areas, go live in a desert; there's a reason people want to live in hills and not flat areas, and there are plenty of flat areas to go live in if that's what you want to go live in, and the reason so many residential areas are not in flat areas is that the flat areas are ugly and wind-swept. Scientists warn against China's plan to flatten over 700 mountains Serious, flat-landers: if you want flat, MOVE TO FLAT WHERE YOU BELONG; California & Nevada literally have state-sized areas full of unsettled flat land that you can go live in for cheap.

 

[dgatwood]

Yeah, it sometimes depends on state rules or how the local jurisdiction interprets the building rules whether the accessible EVCS is required to be permanently reserved or just as "use last".

This is actually an interesting open question. The Sunnyvale supercharger has one spot that shows a blue and white handicapped logo with the words "Van accessible". However, according to California vehicular code, it is not marked correctly as a handicapped parking space, because it was constructed long after July 1, 2008 and is missing the “Minimum Fine $250.” signage.

The sign seems to be almost entirely ignored — presumably because most drivers assume that it is just intended to be used last, like at all the other Bay Area superchargers. However, the sign that would normally be present that says "Use this space last" is also not present, so that may not be the case.

I have absolutely no idea whether all the Tesla owners that charge in that spot are breaking the law not. I contacted Tesla a while back for clarification, but they never responded, so I guess they don't know, either.

 

[mociaf9]

This is actually an interesting open question. The Sunnyvale supercharger has one spot that shows a blue and white handicapped logo with the words "Van accessible". However, according to California vehicular code, it is not marked correctly as a handicapped parking space, because it was constructed long after July 1, 2008 and is missing the “Minimum Fine $250.” signage.

The sign seems to be almost entirely ignored — presumably because most drivers assume that it is just intended to be used last, like at all the other Bay Area superchargers. However, the sign that would normally be present that says "Use this space last" is also not present, so that may not be the case.

I have absolutely no idea whether all the Tesla owners that charge in that spot are breaking the law not. I contacted Tesla a while back for clarification, but they never responded, so I guess they don't know, either.

It's not supposed to be marked as a handicapped parking space because it isn't a handicapped parking space. I assume it's correctly marked as a handicapped EVCS. I.e. it should have a sign with the ISA (blue&white wheelchair symbol) at the head of the stall and the ground marking should not have the ISA and instead say "EV Charging Only". The markings are intentionally different. If someone with handicap placards or plates was to park in that stall without charging they would be liable to citation. So are those who use the charger without having the placard/plates.

 

[dgatwood]

It's not supposed to be marked as a handicapped parking space because it isn't a handicapped parking space. I assume it's correctly marked as a handicapped EVCS. I.e. it should have a sign with the ISA (blue&white wheelchair symbol) at the head of the stall and the ground marking should not have the ISA and instead say "EV Charging Only". The markings are intentionally different. If someone with handicap placards or plates was to park in that stall without charging they would be liable to citation. So are those who use the charger without having the placard/plates.

I believe you are correct — that it does not have the ISA on the parking space, nor the blue stripes on the van access area. So it should be legal to charge there. But I think we'd all feel more comfortable if Tesla put up signs that say "Use this space last" like they have on the van-accessible spots in every other Bay Area city.

 

[mociaf9]

So it should be legal to charge there.

If it has the ISA sign at the head of the stall and the ground marking says, "EV Charging Only", then it's only legal to charge there if you also have a handicap placard or plates on the car. It's never legal to park there regardless of whether you have the placard/plates or not. If you don't have the placard or plates, you aren't supposed to use the stall for anything. It's intentionally reserved. The exception is that some stalls don't have the ISA sign and instead have the courtesy sign asking that the stall be used last to maximize the chance of disabled acccess. That stall's use isn't legally restricted, just a matter of request/courtesy.

 

[dgatwood]

If it has the ISA sign at the head of the stall and the ground marking says, "EV Charging Only", then it's only legal to charge there if you also have a handicap placard or plates on the car.

If the sign does not say that it is reserved parking and does not have the "$250 Minimum fine" marking and does not have blue pavement markings, I'm about 99% sure that merely having the ISA on a sign does not make it a legally enforceable handicapped-only space, because that does not even remotely comply with the California signage requirements for a handicapped parking space.

If you can cite some part of California law that says otherwise, I'd be curious to see it.

 

[mociaf9]

If the sign does not say that it is reserved parking and does not have the "$250 Minimum fine" marking and does not have blue pavement markings, I'm about 99% sure that merely having the ISA on a sign does not make it a legally enforceable handicapped-only space, because that does not even remotely comply with the California signage requirements for a handicapped parking space.

If you can cite some part of California law that says otherwise, I'd be curious to see it.

The CA Vehicle Code section you're referencing is for PARKING spaces. This isn't a parking space.

I'm not sure what the relevant CVC section is for EV Charging Stations (EVCS) or if it's been updated to include it yet, my information comes from the video presentation (and FAQ) by the Dept. of State Architect's office on the updating of the CA Building Code for how to go about building an EVCS in CA. Where they addressed this issue directly. I linked it here. These threads were supposed to be merged....

 

[dgatwood]

The CA Vehicle Code section you're referencing is for PARKING spaces. This isn't a parking space.

I'm not sure what the relevant CVC section is for EV Charging Stations (EVCS) or if it's been updated to include it yet, my information comes from the video presentation (and FAQ) by the Dept. of State Architect's office on the updating of the CA Building Code for how to go about building an EVCS in CA. Where they addressed this issue directly. I linked it here. These threads were supposed to be merged....

California building codes are not available to the general public (unless you pay $$$$). Either way, the building code is irrelevant to drivers. That governs the rules for signage, not the rules for who can park where. The only code that actually affects drivers is the California vehicular code.

As far as I can tell, the only part of CVC that restricts parking in handicapped spaces is section 22507.8. That section, in turn, references the following sections:

Section 22511.7, which says that any such spaces shall be marked with blue curb paint or blue borders (for a non-curbside space) AND a "minimum fine" sign.
Section 22511.8, which has similar wording.
California Government Code section 14679, which also has similar wording.

I can't find anything in CVC that even remotely suggests that any parking space without blue stripes, without a "minimum fine" sign, and without the words "Reserved Parking" anywhere on or near that handicapped symbol is actually reserved for, as opposed to merely designed to accommodate, handicapped use, and it seems almost nonsensical to believe that it could be.

That said, if a parking enforcement person tickets you, it's still going to cost you a whole day to fight the citation. And this is why Tesla absolutely needs to clarify its signage.

The CVC section for EV parking is section 22511. It makes no mention of handicapped parking whatsoever.

 

[Merle]

They're not legal handicapped "parking" spots, and in fact, most EV spots are marked for charging (and not parking) only. In CA, parking an EV spot can get you towed, but charging in a "blue marked" charging spot won't get you anything but dirty looks.

Look, we know it's courteous to pay attention to the "employee of the month" or "expectant mothers" parking spots - but there is no legally enforceable law which can allow you to be fined, or towed when taking those spots UNLESS it's in a restricted (aka gated) parking location and retains it's private designation, and not accessible to the public.

Handicapped spots need to be marked, not only on the ground but on the wall with the fines as previously mentioned. You can forgo a bit of that by placing a sign at the entrance to the parking lot - but it has to be at EVERY entrance. The police aren't always the ones who write tickets for handicapped spots, so your experience with their experience may vary.

Point is that these aren't handicapped parking spots, but courtesy spots.

Be nice. You or yours may one day need to charge your EV while with a temporary handicapped placard such as if you're pregnant (and pregnant women can get those placards).

 

[dgatwood]

They're not legal handicapped "parking" spots, and in fact, most EV spots are marked for charging (and not parking) only. In CA, parking an EV spot can get you towed, but charging in a "blue marked" charging spot won't get you anything but dirty looks.

On the flip side, if you refuse to pull into it and there's a line of four cars behind you waiting to charge, you're going to get even dirtier looks.