Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

MPG equivalent

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Much ado about nothing

Wow. I'm continually impressed by how many people seem to care about this. Let me ask the most basic question: "why should we be comparing grid electricity to gasoline on a straight-up energy content basis anyway?"

The sources of energy are so different that comparing them in this way tells you absolutely nothing you care about. It doesn't tell you anything about the relative driving cost, which is by far the most important factor. It doesn't tell you anything about relative pollution, future resource availability, scarcity, or anything else. Other than simple academic curiosity, what's the point?

When you look at it that way, it's hard to justify *not* inflating mpg numbers on EVs. The energy is cheaper, cleaner, domestically produced, and available from many sources that will never run out. If you're going to make "mpg" into an all-inclusive efficiency rating for vehicles (something I think is silly in itself) then ignoring all these factors makes the metric less valuable, not more.

Personally, I think they should change the universal metric. Total operating cost per mile seems like the obvious choice. Make it over 100k or 200k miles (or better, the average vehicle lifespan) so you get in battery replacement and all the oil changes and ICE maintenance...and of course update it every model year with the projected average fuel costs over an average vehicle lifespan. This would be far better suited for the main usefulness of the current ratings (cost comparison). To cover the other bases they could add a pollution per mile index and the actual efficiency...in mpg for ICE cars and Whr/mile for EV's. No sense in converting, since you already have fuel-neutral cost/pollution metrics, and since you pay for Whr (not gallons) on your electric bill.
 
It doesn't tell you anything about relative pollution, future resource availability, scarcity, or anything else.

Personally, I think they should change the universal metric. Total operating cost per mile seems like the obvious choice. Make it over 100k or 200k miles (or better, the average vehicle lifespan) so you get in battery replacement and all the oil changes and ICE maintenance...and of course update it every model year with the projected average fuel costs over an average vehicle lifespan. This would be far better suited for the main usefulness of the current ratings (cost comparison). To cover the other bases they could add a pollution per mile index and the actual efficiency...in mpg for ICE cars and Whr/mile for EV's. No sense in converting, since you already have fuel-neutral cost/pollution metrics, and since you pay for Whr (not gallons) on your electric bill.

I think the uninflated MPGe does tell you a rough estimate of the relative pollution. Judging by Ohmexcited's numbers the 38.4MPGe of the Tesla translates to roughly .598 lbs/mi of CO2 on the average US grid, again using the EV-1 numbers since they are closer to the 321Wh/mi given by Tesla. The Corolla with 36mpg gets 0.674lbs/mi. It gives you a ball park figure in what to expect in terms of CO2 (on the average US grid, again Ohmexcited didn't have any numbers on petroleum-fired powerplants specifically).

On the cost side, you'd be surprised how close the plug-to-wheel MPGe is to the actual gasoline cost. I posted this on a recent discussion on the VW plug-in Golf.
"If you round up the latest average from the EIA (DOE) 10.2 cents/kWh for Jan 08 or 10.64 total average for 2007 to 11 cents/kWh you get $3.71, which is cheaper than the current US average of $4.07 for gasoline.
[www.eia.doe.gov]
[tonto.eia.doe.gov]"

This is using the 33705Wh/gal figure: 11cents/kWh * 33.705kWh/gal = $3.71/gal.
Since the plug-to-wheel efficiency number is calculated using the 33.705kWh/gal figure, it directly correlates, so a 135MPGe (plug-to-wheel) Tesla would cost around the same to fuel as a 135mpg gasoline car.

But I do agree on the point about the operating cost per mile being a good metric, but I think the problem with that is that electricity cost varies so much for different areas and households, like for example in one of the threads there was a story of a person who had 2 EVs and it pushed his usage to more than 3x over baseline (so the electricity 3x over baseline came at roughly 3x the cost), which drastically raised his electric bill, unlike gasoline where there is no "baseline". In that sense, operating cost per mile really is about as reliable as the MPGe figures: it gives you a ball park figure.

I see MPGe as a kind of stepping stone, it helps show the relative efficiency of various fuel technologies, which aids in explaining to laypeople what the big deal is about these cars (efficiency-wise, not cost) at least until they get used to a new metric. (It also is very useful in internet arguments about which alternative fuel is better or how much better or worst it is than conventional gasoline cars). In terms of practicality, I think Wh/mi is without a doubt the best efficiency figure for EVs, you can figure out all the costs, pollution, etc., given this figure.
 
Last edited:
stopcrazypp,

You've apparently been doing some real "fuzzy math" in this thread. It leads to this quote being very, very bogus:

I think the uninflated MPGe does tell you a rough estimate of the relative pollution. Judging by Ohmexcited's numbers the 38.4MPGe of the Tesla translates to roughly .598 lbs/mi of CO2 on the average US grid, again using the EV-1 numbers since they are closer to the 321Wh/mi given by Tesla. The Corolla with 36mpg gets 0.674lbs/mi.

First off, where did you get this 321Whr/mi number? The pack is 53kWhr. It goes 221 miles. Divide: 239.8Whr/mi. Let's use the Volt numbers, based on 233Whr/mi, leading to .373lb/mi; a far cry from your number.

The bigger problem is this silly conversion factor you've come up with. Let's start with the absurdity of basing your numbers on a hypothetical gasoline-powered electrical plant. Since no U.S. grid power is provided that way, how is this relevant? Seriously...the whole point of EVs is getting away from the inherent inefficiency and scarcity of gas! But the more important problem (that is, the one does the most to make your number so horribly misrepresentative) is that you have gone and changed the break between pump-to-wheel and well-to-wheel in an incredibly unfair way. The break should *not* be "when the fuel gets burned" but rather "when the energy gets into the car." That is, inefficiencies that happen before the customer gets the energy don't count towards pump-to-wheel numbers. This is really obvious; I'm just over here scratching my head trying to figure out what on Earth would make someone decide otherwise. I guess because you are trying to figure out what would happen in the unlikely and absurd event that someone decided to power EVs with gasoline in a power plant. Anyway, that's not the way it's done. You either compare the whole cycle (well-to-wheel) or you compare pump-to-wheel vs. plug-to-wheel.
 
Great news for Tesla and for them trading the credits.

"The latest government fuel economy report says 2008-model cars and trucks sold in the United States will average 26.8 mpg, up only slightly from 26.6 mpg in 2007.

Doesn't the Tesla screw up this data? Does one (or soon 3,4 full Electric cars added to this list make the total look like all the car makers are doing better than they really are --by not doing anything?

Shouldn't there be a separate list or EVs (or partial Evs)?
 
Last edited:
The number of EVs is still a drop in the bucket. So I don't think it would have much of an affect on the average.
Err... that's assuming they calculate the average in a sensible way. The average should be weighted by number of vehicles sold (or estimated to be sold). Whether it is or not, I don't know.
 
Does one (or soon 3,4 full Electric cars added to this list make the total look like all the car makers are doing better than they really are --by not doing anything?
Shouldn't there be a separate list or EVs (a partial Evs)?

How would they classify the Volt? If they rate it as hundreds of MPG it makes it easier for GM to meet their CAFE targets. Strong encouragement to make some, but then they end up offsetting multiple hummers per volt sold. Inflated MPGe numbers sound like a mixed bag.
 
MPG Equivalent Lies

Inflated MPGe numbers sound like a mixed bag.

It's even worse than you'd expect. The 256 MPG number that Tesla now has on their home page is based on the EPA-mandated formula that converts kwh to gallons of gas using a conversion factor that's more than twice the accepted value based on the actual energy content of a gallon of gas. That's why the MPG number on Tesla's site more than doubled from the original value of 135 MPG. It's not that the Roadster got more efficient, the EPA just requires EV producers to ignore physics when doing the MPG-equivalent calculation.

So, yeah, the auto industry apparently got the laws and regulations written to give them twice the CAFE benefit they reasonably should get for producing electric vehicles.
 
It's even worse than you'd expect. The 256 MPG number that Tesla now has on their home page...

Another downside is that naysayers can use it as a point of contention saying that the EVs have "overinflated" claims. They can gripe about the disparity and blame the EV makers, not the EPA.
 
I think that in their own long-term interests, Tesla should stick with their own figure. What's the worst that can happen? Get sued? Again?

The publicity would draw attention to the innacuracy of these calculations whilst promoting Tesla as a name to trust.
 
I think that in their own long-term interests, Tesla should stick with their own figure.

Actually they should only state the official number when and where they are mandated to so and not forget to add it is EPA standard. MPG will sooner or later go the way of MIPS (Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed).

When talking about efficiency they should use outlet-kWh/mile and let public get a grip on new terms. Electric energy just can't be measured in gallons no matter how hard you try.
 
Cranking the Volt to 100 M.P.G. - NYTimes.com

The Tesla Roadster, an all-electric sports car that is now being delivered to early customers, is an interesting example of this process. Because the Tesla never consumes petroleum while driving, the E.P.A.-required window sticker lists the energy consumed in kilowatt-hours of electricity. Translating the Roadster’s numbers — 32 kilowatt hours per 100 miles in town and 33 on the highway — to more familiar units using a textbook conversion factor yields impressive ratings of 105 m.p.g. in the city and 102 on the highway. But applying the adjustment factor devised by the Energy Department, which takes into account not only energy content but also such considerations as scarcity of the fuel and production and distribution efficiency, yields far more impressive mileage figures: 256 m.p.g. in the city and 249 on the highway.

In the electric-car realm, the prevailing attitude seems to be the more the merrier, in part because of provisions in the government’s Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules, which let automakers earn credits for exceeding the minimum requirements. While mileage credits cannot yet be swapped company to company, Tesla Motors hopes that will change, eventually permitting it to sell mileage credits to brands burdened with gas-guzzling models.
 
The other day I was over at Fuel Economy dot Gov looking up the "gas mileage" of the Roadster. I wanted to see what was official -if anything.

The Roadster was not even there. Since it was easy I dropped a line to them.

Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:01 PM
To: FuelEconomy
Subject: Please include this car.
Please include the Tesla Roadster as a currently available electric car.
Details here:
Tesla Motors
Being a government agency I thought nothing would ever come from it. I was surprised to have this full throated answer in my box this morning.

Dear Mr. (vfx)

Thank you for your email. We had been anticipating data for the Tesla Roadster for more than a year but the last word we received is that the data would not be coming. At one time (back in 2008) Tesla certified their roadster with the EPA however, before the data were released to the public, Tesla made changes to the roadster and has since decided not to certify their vehicle with the EPA - at least for now. Cars produced in a low enough volume are not required to be certified so it appears for now that Tesla has chosen the low volume route. If Tesla certifies a vehicle with the EPA and approves release of that data, we will be more than happy to post it on our website. We thank you for your interest in our website and for taking the time to contact us.

Sincerely,

Fuel Economy

Someone blogged about the 0-60 times now actually 4.1 not 3.9, this might be related.
 
Someone blogged about the 0-60 times now actually 4.1 not 3.9, this might be related.

I thought it was because Tesla was unhappy with what it felt were over-exaggerated equivalent mileage figures.

Tesla's own 135mpg-equivalent jumped to 256 using the EPA's way of calculating.

Tesla now prefers "244 miles per charge"

I think they're waiting for someone to sort out the mpg mess - which is likely to become more confusing as REEV and PHEV manufacturers compete.
 
Last edited:
Fueleconomy.gov has a fair amount of info on EVs as part of their web site:

Extreme MPG
Electric Vehicles (EVs)

They mention the Roadster in their 2009 Fuel Economy Guide:
...You can calculate the fuel cost (in dollars) of driving your electric vehicle for a year by multiplying the energy consumption for the vehicle (in kilowatt-hours/100 miles) by your local electricity rate (in dollars per kilowatt-hour), multiplying that by the annual miles the vehicle will be driven, and dividing by 100.

Tesla Roadster
Battery - Motor - City/Hwy - Fuel - Range
Lithium-Ion - 185kW AC Induction - TBD - Electricity Only - TBD
So they list the MPGe and range as "TBD".
 
Last edited: