My test drive today

[Hut]

That is a very good question. My answer is really more rationalization than logic.

I read once that if you drive a plug in Prius with a 20km range, fully charged on a 20km one way commute to work and then charge it during the day and drive it back home again, the use of the battery will be 200% efficient. If you take a Model S, with an 85kw battery, fully charged each day to work then the efficiency will be only 8.3% (40/480) if you don't charge it at work. That's a lot of Li-ion being dragged around as ballast. So maybe the 40kw battery makes much more sense.

However, I have never owned a proper EV and am making this decision without a solid point of reference. I want to be able to drive to Muskoka in the summer without range anxiety. I would like to have supercharging available either to use in the future or to help with resale when super-duper charging is available. I want winter weather and/or 8 years of use to make my 85kw battery still work like a new 60kw battery.

My most recent coup d'rationalization was to decide against the tech package (save $4g), get the 85kw (+$10g) that has supercharging included (-$2g). So the net is only 10-4-2 = $4000 for the bigger battery.

Don't sneeze because my logic will collapse like a house of cards.

I am more leaning towards to a 40kw, I mainly go around in the GTA with ~ 40 - 70 km commute each day.

~$10K upgrade to 60kw seems not justify

Why are you thinking of getting the twin chargers? Does your home main breaker support the HPWC without upgrades?

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However, I have never owned a proper EV and am making this decision without a solid point of reference. I want to be able to drive to Muskoka in the summer without range anxiety. I would like to have supercharging available either to use in the future or to help with resale when super-duper charging is available. I want winter weather and/or 8 years of use to make my 85kw battery still work like a new 60kw battery.

Yes, I agree with jerry33. If you are taking it to Muskoka which is ~ 200-250 km each way, then you will need a 85KW.

I don't think there will be any Supercharging Station going that direction yet. I heard Tesla is planning to install one between Toronto & Montreal, and another one between Toronto & Niagara. Any updates on the location of the Super Charger?

 

[Doug_G]

In very cold conditions you can lose a good chunk of range due to the pack heater. The impact will be proportionately larger for the 40 kWh pack. Combine pack heating with some cabin heat and you can easily be drawing 12 kW sitting still. You should factor that into your decision.

 

[Hut]

In very cold conditions you can lose a good chunk of range due to the pack heater. The impact will be proportionately larger for the 40 kWh pack. Combine pack heating with some cabin heat and you can easily be drawing 12 kW sitting still. You should factor that into your decision.

You have 85kw? And what's your range like in a very cold condition? Is it like -20c outside?

 

[Doug_G]

You have 85kw? And what's your range like in a very cold condition? Is it like -20c outside?

It depends. Best case scenario was this morning: Car was charging overnight in an insulated garage so it was "only" -14C, and I used low charging power so it was still charging when I left. Temperature outdoors had risen to -19C by then, and the pack was nice and toasty so I had full regen and no extra loss of range.

Worst case scenario was driving around all day doing shopping - a series of very short trips in windy -20C conditions. I hadn't figured out the "using charging to preheat the pack" thing yet, so I started out with NO regen whatsoever, and the pack heater always was at full power. With the cabin heat on the total draw was about 12 kW standing still. I drove a few km, stopped for an hour or so, lather rinse repeat all day. Under these conditions the pack never warmed up, and I was consuming something like 550 Wh/km. At that rate 40 km of driving comes to 22 kWh. Pretty big chunk of a 40 kWh pack. Of course I could have done better if I had known to preheat the pack before leaving.

If you can always plug in at work this might not be an issue for you.

 

[Hut]

It depends. Best case scenario was this morning: Car was charging overnight in an insulated garage so it was "only" -14C, and I used low charging power so it was still charging when I left. Temperature outdoors had risen to -19C by then, and the pack was nice and toasty so I had full regen and no extra loss of range.

Worst case scenario was driving around all day doing shopping - a series of very short trips in windy -20C conditions. I hadn't figured out the "using charging to preheat the pack" thing yet, so I started out with NO regen whatsoever, and the pack heater always was at full power. With the cabin heat on the total draw was about 12 kW standing still. I drove a few km, stopped for an hour or so, lather rinse repeat all day. Under these conditions the pack never warmed up, and I was consuming something like 550 Wh/km. At that rate 40 km of driving comes to 22 kWh. Pretty big chunk of a 40 kWh pack. Of course I could have done better if I had known to preheat the pack before leaving.

If you can always plug in at work this might not be an issue for you.

Wow, Ottawa is quite cold then. The outside temp in GTA this morning was ~ -9c. Generally, this winter is mostly > -10c so far.

I have underground parking at work and the temp is close to +20c which should be good for the pack.

40km consumed 22kwh is indeed pretty alarming for a 40kw pack.

 

[Doug_G]

Yes you are better off than us in the GTA, but you can still occasionally get extreme cold. If you park indoors at work then it would be much less of an issue.

 

[LazMan]

You mean the "I will offset the cost of the tech package by skimping on BOTH the parcel shelf and cargo net"?

:biggrin:

Look at that, you did the work for me!

 

[kbeckley]

I would just second Doug_G about the 40kwh pack. While Toronto does not see many weeks of cold this particular week we are in is cold (-13c today) and the pack really uses itself up keeping warm. Perhaps with the forthcoming pre-heating this will be mitigated somewhat but on a cold day the 40kwh pack will be significantly reduced. No one knows how much yet but if it is like the 85kwh pack then quite a lot of energy will be used for non-locomotive purposes. For instance today I drove 100km in various smallish legs with no babying of the use (in fact I was giving my nth test drive which always involves a couple of heavy accelerations) and not in range mode. I started the day with 365km rated range and ended with 160km rated range. Again I was preheating the car by running the heater with the door ajar and had almost the worst case series of drives with enough time for everything to cool down so this was extreme but it is a reference point. Once the temperature gets up toward 0C the range reduction due to heating is so much less.

 

[Eberhard]

The lifetime of the lithium-ion batterie depends heavily on the DOD. You always put double the stress of on the 40kWh batterie as on the 85kWh battery. The lifetime of the 85kWh batterie may not be simple the double it may be even 4-5t times. When it will be, that the 85kWh will be drop down to 40kWh it is still like a new 40kWh while you had to replace your 40kWh back 4-5 times already.

 

[LazMan]

I would just second Doug_G about the 40kwh pack. While Toronto does not see many weeks of cold this particular week we are in is cold (-13c today) and the pack really uses itself up keeping warm. Perhaps with the forthcoming pre-heating this will be mitigated somewhat but on a cold day the 40kwh pack will be significantly reduced. No one knows how much yet but if it is like the 85kwh pack then quite a lot of energy will be used for non-locomotive purposes. For instance today I drove 100km in various smallish legs with no babying of the use (in fact I was giving my nth test drive which always involves a couple of heavy accelerations) and not in range mode. I started the day with 365km rated range and ended with 160km rated range. Again I was preheating the car by running the heater with the door ajar and had almost the worst case series of drives with enough time for everything to cool down so this was extreme but it is a reference point. Once the temperature gets up toward 0C the range reduction due to heating is so much less.

This is no different from my Prius. When it's very cold, the engine runs continuously if the heater is on, even if the battery is fully charged. Cold weather really cancels most of the value of this hybrid.

 

[sublimaze1]

FWIW, we had a cold snap here in Dallas recently (yes, I am aware it is nothing quite like Toronto) and when parked downtown at work, I was losing ~ 2.0-2.5 miles of range per hour of sitting in the lot, and 1.5 if I did not charge in the garage at home. So, that chews up a great percentage of the 40 pack, compared to the 85 pack.

Again, FWIW.

 

[Doug_G]

FWIW, we had a cold snap here in Dallas recently (yes, I am aware it is nothing quite like Toronto)

You just made a lot of Canucks chuckle. Toronto is actually mild compared to much of Canada, and has a reputation of calling in the army if they get a major snowstorm (seriously, they actually did once, to the great amusement of the rest of the country).

 

[sublimaze1]

You just made a lot of Canucks chuckle. Toronto has a reputation of calling in the army if they get a major snowstorm (seriously, they actually did once, to the great amusement of the rest of the country).

I lived outside of TO for four years. I chuckle too.

Now Buffalo ....

 

[Jeeps17]

You just made a lot of Canucks chuckle.

I'm still laughing !

:biggrin:

 

[Rodolfo Paiz]

I really wouldn't suggest sacrificing the tech package, because I'd have to deal with all those little -- and USEFUL -- things missing every single day I owned the car. But that's just my own preference. Do think about it carefully, though.

 

[Knight Rider]

How long did you have to wait for a test drive at the Toronto store? I have a reservation that needs to be finalized by Feb 12th and of course the one day in the next month I plan to be in Toronto, their fully booked. Kind of hard to click finalize without a test drive. Might have to see if I can get one on my next trip to NYC.

 

[Hut]

How long did you have to wait for a test drive at the Toronto store? I have a reservation that needs to be finalized by Feb 12th and of course the one day in the next month I plan to be in Toronto, their fully booked. Kind of hard to click finalize without a test drive. Might have to see if I can get one on my next trip to NYC.

Not long, I think max is 1 week. But you should always give them a call to book a slot before you show up. Check your schedule first and call the Toronto show room ASAP.

 

[Knight Rider]

Not long, I think max is 1 week. But you should always give them a call to book a slot before you show up. Check your schedule first and call the Toronto show room ASAP.

Yeah, I used the "Request a callback" feature on the website last Saturday/Sunday to book a test-ride for Jan 26th. Never heard back. Just called and their fully booked. Will drop by and hopefully someone cancels at the last minute, however it sounds unlikely.

 

[LazMan]

How long did you have to wait for a test drive at the Toronto store? I have a reservation that needs to be finalized by Feb 12th and of course the one day in the next month I plan to be in Toronto, their fully booked. Kind of hard to click finalize without a test drive. Might have to see if I can get one on my next trip to NYC.

I waited a month but that was mostly because of my schedule. The test drive will do nothing but impress you more than reading about this car will.

I was in Florida over the break and actually had a chance for a short test drive at the Dania Beach store.

BTW, it seems TMC has talked me into getting the tech package. My wife is not impressed.

 

[Jeeps17]

BTW, it seems TMC has talked me into getting the tech package. My wife is not impressed.

LOL !

Yes, but you did reinforce the fact that you are passing on TWO other very desirable options, right?