New long-range BEV Volkswagen to debut at Paris Motor Show

[tomas]

While I'm disturbed by VW dieselgate ethics issue, I believe they are the manufacturer least likely to cheat now - it has been embarrassing and expensive.

I own an eGolf in addition to my model S. It is an awesome 100 mile range car for the price. If VW produces something with equivalent handling and looks plus twice the range in the 30s, no amount of scoffing here will thwart success, and charging options (albeit paid) will follow volume sales rapidly.

Folks, there is a LOT of room in the market for many BEVs. I just hope VW makes something sporty, roomy, fun like eGolf rather than geeky like i3, Leaf, and apparently Bolt.

 

[Jeff N]

I don't see anything in the article about GM; are you simply conjecturing GM's reliance on how VW's fine turns into charging stations?

Right, that's just my conjecture. I think GM thinks it can get away with VW and others paying the cost of setting up CCS highway charging although they may choose to contribute at some point.

VW is being forced to get serious about BEVs as a result of their diesel scandals. As part of settlements, they are committing to spending large sums on EV infrastructure. As part of their plans, I'm guessing they want to leverage some of the chargers they are forced to pay for by selling large battery cars rather than letting GM or others reap the benefit alone.

As for Audi/VW and 175 charging sites over the next two years... first, I don't see anything in the article about that, I think you're relying on other knowledge. And second, I wonder how capable those charging stations will be and if there really are 175 of them in the plan or some smaller number of stations that have multiple chargers that are being counted in that 175. And third, I'm still really angry at VW/Audi and Dieselgate, which has nothing to do directly with this discussion other than increasing my already-large skepticism about anything VW group says. And fourth, I'll believe it when I see it.

You are right to be skeptical but VW does have to spend money as part of their diesel settlement and in order to sell their big battery Audi Q60 e-tron cars and compete with Tesla they need actually fast chargers installed along the highways.

Fast-Charge Plugs Do Not Fit All Electric Cars

At Audi, Killen has been tasked with forming a partnership of automakers to install 175 new chargers nationwide before Audi’s e-tron quattro makes its debut in 2018. Killen says he wants to emulate Tesla’s model of installing chargers “not just where electric vehicles are and drive,” but across the country.

 

[WannabeOwner]

While I'm disturbed by VW dieselgate ethics issue, I believe they are the manufacturer least likely to cheat now - it has been embarrassing and expensive

I thought that about Barclays Bank, who I used to bank with, the first time they were fined billions ... at the time I thought "embarrassing and expensive", exactly as you describe, but they were then repeatedly fined for other dishonest practices. Their corporate culture was rotten.

I think there are definitely scenarios where VW could be fined again ... for example, imagine that the reason that the cheating software was installed was because senior management said "You have got to get this lean-burn engine working" and were complete deaf to any difficulties that R&D were having, and that people in R&D were terrified of senior managers so they fudged it. If that was the case it seems to me to be quite likely that that culture could cause there to be other, similar, situations.

VW shafted me (we own 2x VW Golf BlueMotion and 1x SEAT vehicles, bought as part of our move to being an Eco family, no compensation here in Europe) and I will never, ever, trust them or buy another vehicle from them again (same with Barclays Bank, in my case ...), they also were part of the whole shift here which lobbied our government to back so called "Clean Diesel" which now means we have huge numbers on the roads, polluting our cities - which is another black mark, in my book, in addition to fitting the lying-cheating test-bypass software.

 

[tomas]

I understand @WannabeOwner

These are serious transgressions of trust. What makes it confounding is that VWs path to recovery is to move to BEVs. Their footprint together with a growing Tesla could move BEV to >10% market share in the 20s and put it irreversibly on course to replace ICE. Kind of mercenary of me, but for that reason I'd grudgingly support. However if they retreat for a second from BEV mission... Auf wiedersehen

 

[WannabeOwner]

My expectation is that most of the traditional motor car companies will disappear in the transition to alternative energy propulsion. Its happened in history when there has been a quantum change of something (e.g. Ocean Liner travel changing to Air Travel). So to my mind more likely that cars of the future will be from new vendors - Google and Apple, as well as Tesla. Maybe some others new names too. Anyone who doesn't already have a BEV with sales levels matching Leaf, Bolt, Tesla etc. is too late to the party IMHO, they have been complacent and/or lobbying and siding with Big Oil to stop it happening ... which is unforgivable in my eyes. There is also the issue that most Dealers are threatened by the low maintenance costs etc. of BEV, so not incentivised to sell BEV relative to ICE.

I think VW may yet get saddled with so much debt that that may hamper their ability to survive too - what if other manufacturers sue VW for stealing their customers / orders using promises of a feature that no other competitor had ... when in fact that feature was a lie. That litigation could dwarf the litigation from individual customers ...

 

[wycolo]

Fast-Charge Plugs Do Not Fit All Electric Cars

Fast-Fueling BEVs is childishly simple: first of all there is no diesel/olene dichotomy to worry about - it is ALL 400 volts DC, no matter which brand of BEV you are considering. Secondly, EV stations can add a second or third cable to each charge station so to fit whatever socket the vehicle happens to have. As Tesla developed their Chademo adapter so could other adapters be designed; it is mostly about the software after all.

Tesla's 'bulk purchase' vs the 'public charger' business model dichotomy remains, but should not stand in the way of rapid proliferation of public networks. Build out the networks and the cars will follow. Future needs will be massive; what might look like wretched excess to today's observer will seem short sighted in just a few years time.
--

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Charging infrastructure companies in a couple of European countries have already announced plans to roll them out. The standards process is on track to complete within the next year or so for both CHAdeMO and CCS.

For example:

Switzerland is getting a new fast-charging network worthy of the Tesla Supercharger: 150kW chargers at 100 sites

That's great, but I don't think many people purchasing the Bolt in the US will be able to use those stations. My point was that the current plan to put up all of these stations is only really going to be beneficial for current and past BEVs, and unless they're built to be easily upgradable it would be a waste of money. I realize there are a number of Bolt proponents that feel differently, but 50kW isn't enough to allow convenient intercity travel, and certainly not enough to benefit those without access to home charging.

 

[Jeff N]

That's great, but I don't think many people purchasing the Bolt in the US will be able to use those stations. My point was that the current plan to put up all of these stations is only really going to be beneficial for current and past BEVs, and unless they're built to be easily upgradable it would be a waste of money. I realize there are a number of Bolt proponents that feel differently, but 50kW isn't enough to allow convenient intercity travel, and certainly not enough to benefit those without access to home charging.

I've done some research on the CA Energy Commission DC charging grants but not enough to be certain of my understanding.

I believe the CA funded stations going in under these grants are sized for initial "50 kW"' CHAdeMO and CCS chargers installed now plus a pre-wired "expansion" location intended for a future "100 kW" charger. As in, the transformers and power lines are sized for that much continuous power draw (135 KVA for "100 kW"). One document from consultants recommended 2 designs to choose from based on local needs. Option 1 adds a CHAdeMO charger, a dual CHAdeMO/CCS charger, and an L2 AC charger backed up by a 300 KVA power drop and transformer since there are more CHAdeMO cars on the road today. A second option adds more chargers and ups the location power drop to 500 KVA.

Since initial charging of a car battery can be sometimes be limited by 200A current spec limits rather than total power draw I would not be surprised if the actual expansion chargers eventually installed are based on the pending CCS/CHAdeMO 300A+ spec limit upgrades even though the chargers may limit their overall draw to 100 kW.

These grants are clearly aimed at near-term use. Obviously, there will be a need for many more chargers using something like the Tesla Supercharger layout model.

 

[miimura]

I've done some research on the CA Energy Commission DC charging grants but not enough to be certain of my understanding.

I believe the CA funded stations going in under these grants are sized for initial "50 kW"' CHAdeMO and CCS chargers installed now plus a pre-wired "expansion" location intended for a future "100 kW" charger. As in, the transformers and power lines are sized for that much continuous power draw (135 KVA for "100 kW"). One document from consultants recommended 2 designs to choose from based on local needs. Option 1 adds a CHAdeMO charger, a dual CHAdeMO/CCS charger, and an L2 AC charger backed up by a 300 KVA power drop and transformer since there are more CHAdeMO cars on the road today. A second option adds more chargers and ups the location power drop to 500 KVA.

Since initial charging of a car battery can be sometimes be limited by 200A current spec limits rather than total power draw I would not be surprised if the actual expansion chargers eventually installed are based on the pending CCS/CHAdeMO 300A+ spec limit upgrades even though the chargers may limit their overall draw to 100 kW.

These grants are clearly aimed at near-term use. Obviously, there will be a need for many more chargers using something like the Tesla Supercharger layout model.

Actually, this is an excerpt of the language from the 2015 (N-S) and 2016 corridor DCFC proposal calls related to required expansion capability:

(GFO-15-601..., p. 16):
The site must include at least one expansion stub out. Each stub out must: (1) include a 2-inch minimum spare conduit run with pull-rope sized, installed, and located per the National Electrical Code for future installation of wiring supporting up to a 480VAC, 4-wire, 125 kW load; and (2) be capped off.

Host sites should have 480V 3-phase power available and adequate transformer capacity to serve the DC Fast charger(s).
...

That is in addition to the actual chargers initially installed.

The stations that were funded by the CEC in 2014 for the I-5 and CA-99 corridors are just now being installed. You can find them on PlugShare in Santa Nella, Coalinga, Lost Hills, Castaic, Tulare, and Merced. Sadly, they are CHAdeMO only and have a maximum output of 25kW. They also use a unique payment method not linked to any other existing network. Very disappointing, but I suppose that's what you get when you give a grant of only $500,000 to a non-profit. Luckily, the 2015 and 2016 grants overlay this area with $3M and $6M contracts to commercial charging networks and provide for a minimum of 50kW chargers and the above mentioned "stub-outs" for higher power chargers.