Newb pre-owned buyer

[crazy150]

Hey guys, been lurking here for a while and have had quite a few questions answered by searching around, but wanted to get a few direct responses from the community.

I’m gearing up to buy a pre-owned MS this summer when I make my final payment on my ICE. To put it simply, which iteration (year or whatever) would you recommend on an out the door 50k budget—ideally 45k.

Current prices suggest I could get a well equipped ‘16 85D. Anything particular to look out for with this one or better suggestions?

A few other questions:

1) while im leaning that way, how strongly would you recommend the Dual motor? The wife will be driving often and she’s never had a rear wheel drive vehicle. I’m a little concerned about her on the wet roads with such a torqy vehicle. Does the traction control make the 2WD car safe enough in wet conditions? Am I over thinking it? Should I just save the money and forgo the D?

2) I know there are some well known issues on some models—drive bearings or something. Is there a way to know which models sold used by Tesla have all these issues addressed?

3) I barely put 10k mi per year on a car, what would be your strategy regarding the warranties considering year model, mileage, etc.?

4) For long term (I.e keeping well beyond warranty) would you forgo the sunroof for potential leaks down the road.

5) for those with kids how well do you find that a rear facing car-seat fits behind the front seats. Drives me nuts that i can’t have my seat in a comfortable position in my wife’s 50k SUV.

6) I have seen a lot of mixed reviews of buying used directly from Tesla. While I’m not opposed to buying from third party, not having a warranty on a 50k car is not an option for me. Any comments on the used market?

7) Autopilot. Uhh, yes I want this but it seems there are a lot of iterations and updates. It’s pretty confusing. Is “autopilot with convenience features” what I’m looking for when shopping Tesla’s used website.

Thanks guys. I know the sales people at Tesla could answer many of these questions, but I like to be armed with knowledge before I talk to salespersons.

 

[AustinP]

Good choice! By summer prices and availabilities will have changed so you’ll see by then what you can get. More probably than today. Some answers:
1) no brainer. The Tesla’s have an amazing ESP system combined with the electric motor. No risk here to go with RWD
2) little risks that 2016 and above have issue anymore. Anyway, covered by the warranty.
4) I had the pano first generation. That one had a leak issue known and fixed easily by the SeC. Never had a leak since then. Almost 4 year and 90000 miles. Use the pano open anytime weather allows it. 2016 and above have a new pano roof and I never read a thread about leaks.
7) AP1 is great but has probably peaked. AP2 and above, called “enhanced”, will probably improve a lot in the coming months and years. Try to get the AP2.5 which is the most advanced for features like dashcam.

 

[Tam]

...Dual motor...

If you have money, buy it, if not don't worry about it. RWD is good enough. Just make sure you got appropriate tire treads.

...I know there are some well known issues on some models...

I had 2012 Model S 85 that ran 100,000 miles in 6 years and it's very reliable in term of not leaving me stranded on the roads. It did need part replacement but I made appointments to Service Center for those.

So, I think it's pretty much up to your luck.

...10k mi per year...

If you are not Do-It-Yourself person, I strongly get some safety net such as warranty or extended warranty (Extended Service Agreement, ESA) in case something will be broken. They are cheap to do it yourself but thousands if you don't have that skill: People could repair a broken onboard charger for about $20 but Tesla would charge you thousands for it.

...forgo the sunroof...

Tesla designers have answered that question. They no longer design sunroof and replace that with an immovable piece of roof glass.

Oh. They do for the 2020 Roadster, but notice, it's not motorized. It's a piece of roof that you manually take it off and place it on yourself.

...rear facing car-seat

Kids love it but it's not ideal because of no air conditioner...

It's fun when there's no other way, but now you can fit forward looking 7 seats (as in Model X and Y) so designers no longer design rear facing seats.

...directly from Tesla...

That's how it works right now. It's a monopoly so there's no incentive for Tesla to straighten out their used-car culture. If you want it, you'll just have to find a way to maneuver through it.

If you want warranty but want to avoid Tesla CPO, don't buy it from another company, buy it from a private sale. Ask for Extended Service Agreement (ESA, extended warranty) and offer to pay it. There should be a before and after purchase screen as proof.

...“autopilot with convenience features”...

Used Autopilot don't have 2019 Autopilot.

2019 Autopilot is very limited to 2 features:

1) TACC, traffic aware cruise control (smart/adaptive cruise)
2) AutoSteer

Prior to that, you have pretty much all other convenience features but not Traffic Lights/Stop Signs automatic compliance.

Old Autopilot: 2014-2016 Plain Autopilot=AP1, first generation and 2016-2018 Enhanced Autopilot=EAP, AP2, second generation can do almost the same but AP1 is more limited (AP1 has 1 camera so it can AutoLane Change but nowhere as good as AP2 with 8 cameras)

Current 2019 Autopilot is just a reduced feature version of 2016-2018 Enhanced Autopilot down to 2 features: It's a function of pricing, not because of technology.

 

[AustinP]

AP1 has 1 camera so it can AutoLane Change but nowhere as good as AP2

AP1 can probably still better do lane change than AP2.

But I agree that AP2 can take into account cars coming from behind, while AP1 will only prevent lane change If there is a car next to it. It will not see cars coming from behind and it is up to the driver to decide weather it is safe or not to change lane.

 

[crazy150]

If you have money, buy it, if not don't worry about it. RWD is good enough. Just make sure you got appropriate tire treads.



I had 2012 Model S 85 that ran 100,000 miles in 6 years and it's very reliable in term of not leaving me stranded on the roads. It did need part replacement but I made appointments to Service Center for those.

So, I think it's pretty much up to your luck.



If you are not Do-It-Yourself person, I strongly get some safety net such as warranty or extended warranty (Extended Service Agreement, ESA) in case something will be broken. They are cheap to do it yourself but thousands if you don't have that skill: People could repair a broken onboard charger for about $20 but Tesla would charge you thousands for it.



Tesla designers have answered that question. They no longer design sunroof and replace that with an immovable piece of roof glass.

Oh. They do for the 2020 Roadster, but notice, it's not motorized. It's a piece of roof that you manually take it off and place it on yourself.



Kids love it but it's not ideal because of no air conditioner...

It's fun when there's no other way, but now you can fit forward looking 7 seats (as in Model X and Y) so designers no longer design rear facing seats.



That's how it works right now. It's a monopoly so there's no incentive for Tesla to straighten out their used-car culture. If you want it, you'll just have to find a way to maneuver through it.

If you want warranty but want to avoid Tesla CPO, don't buy it from another company, buy it from a private sale. Ask for Extended Service Agreement (ESA, extended warranty) and offer to pay it. There should be a before and after purchase screen as proof.



Used Autopilot don't have 2019 Autopilot.

2019 Autopilot is very limited to 2 features:

1) TACC, traffic aware cruise control (smart/adaptive cruise)
2) AutoSteer

Prior to that, you have pretty much all other convenience features but not Traffic Lights/Stop Signs automatic compliance.

Old Autopilot: 2014-2016 Plain Autopilot=AP1, first generation and 2016-2018 Enhanced Autopilot=EAP, AP2, second generation can do almost the same but AP1 is more limited (AP1 has 1 camera so it can AutoLane Change but nowhere as good as AP2 with 8 cameras)

Current 2019 Autopilot is just a reduced feature version of 2016-2018 Enhanced Autopilot down to 2 features: It's a function of pricing, not because of technology.

So the autopilot from a 2015 model has more function that the 2019?

Thanks to all you guys for your quick replies.

So when I see a listing like this:

What can I deduce about the AP functionality?

Also, would you guys recommend the air suspension? I do like a good ride.

And lastly, what models/packages do I need search for to get the air conditioned seats?

 

[Tam]

So the autopilot from a 2015 model has more function that the 2019?

Yes. Certainly. It has more features, but not necessarily safer.

2014-2016 is AP1 (your above listed car), it does AutoLane Change although better in term of smoother but not safer because it can't see a car from a distance behind.

But back to about more, AP1 can do 6 features below:

1) TACC (current 2019 Autopilot and EAP feature)
2) AutoSteer (current 2019 Autopilot and EAP feature)
3) Auto Lane Change with manual signaling (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
4) AutoPark (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
5) Summon (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
6) Speed sign recognition (Currently, only AP1 can do that, not EAP, not 2019 AP)

 

[crazy150]

Yes. Certainly. It has more features, but not necessarily safer.

2014-2016 is AP1 (your above listed car), it does AutoLane Change although better in term of smoother but not safer because it can't see a car from a distance behind.

But back to about more, AP1 can do 6 features below:

1) TACC (current 2019 Autopilot and EAP feature)
2) AutoSteer (current 2019 Autopilot and EAP feature)
3) Auto Lane Change with manual signaling (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
4) AutoPark (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
5) Summon (EAP feature, not 2019 AP)
6) Speed sign recognition (Currently, only AP1 can do that, not EAP, not 2019 AP)

Okay, great. This is pretty unexpected and usually the newer vehicle had more features. Sorry, I’m sure this is answered elsewhere, but is is due to safety? Liability?

 

[Tam]

Okay, great. This is pretty unexpected and usually the newer vehicle had more features. Sorry, I’m sure this is answered elsewhere, but is is due to safety? Liability?

You can have more in AP1 but not necessarily safer due to technology. No problem with safety nor Tesla liability because the bucks stop at an attentive driver not at imperfect automation.

I think TACC works better with >AP1: it stops better with a stationary obstacle scenario but of course not perfect just yet.

Same with AutoSteer: I think >AP1 steers much better especially with sharp curves.

AutoLane Change: We covered about blind spot already. EAP & FSD will do AutoLane Change automatically without driver manually turns the signal stalk first (promised for 3/15/2019 which is 2 days late alread!).

Autopark >AP1 is much faster in vertical autoparking.

Summon >AP1 will be much more improved beacause right now, they (AP1, EAP, 2019AP...) all use sonars only but >AP1 will start using cameras so your car can follow you like a dog does or you can summon from a covered porch while your car would be summoned from a rainny parking space to you.

Speed sign recognition for AP1 is not perfect but workable. This function should be caught up in future so FSD can automatically drive in city streets.

 

[DanZiz]

Okay, great. This is pretty unexpected and usually the newer vehicle had more features. Sorry, I’m sure this is answered elsewhere, but is is due to safety? Liability?

Just to be clear, newer vehicles can do those things, they’re just not included in the base “Autopilot” package any longer.

It goes like this:
AP1 (tied to MobileEye hardware) was offered as the original Autopilot. Has the features listed above.

AP2.0 came out in 2016, was tied to the AP2.0 hardware, and was offered as Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) for the features above plus some others like Navigate in Autopilot *and* a new package was added called Full Self Driving (FSD) that required Enhanced Autopilot and was supposed to add even more but up until this point nothing has actually been delivered (there are about 10,000 threads on this on TMC if you’re interested in learning more).

AP2.5 came out in late 2017 and bumped the hardware up a little bit was still sold as two packages, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving.

At the end of February 2019 Tesla shuffled some features around and changed the packages to just Autopilot, cheaper, with fewer features, and Full Self Driving, made more expensive, and now included some of the features that used to be part of the Enhanced Autopilot package. That’s why people are saying that 2019 Autopilot has fewer features than before. From a package perspective that’s true, but from what the car is capable of doing if you buy both Autopilot and Full Self Driving, there are more features available than the original Autopilot on AP1.

Lastly, you’ll hear chatter about AP Hardware 3.0, which is rumored to be “right around the corner”. Speculation is that that will be needed to actually make anything close to full self driving useful, but it’s not out yet. According to the Twitterverse, if you buy Full Self Driving now on AP2.0 it AP2.5 hardware you’ll get an upgrade to Hardware 3.0 when it’s out. Buyer beware though.

Personally, I never owned an AP1.0 car, have an AP2.0 car with Enhanced Autopilot and absolutely love it. I use it constantly. If you’re looking to buy preowned, you may be hard pressed to find an AP2.5 car as they’re relatively new (all 3’s and late 2017-2018 S / X’s). Folks with AP1.0 like it and have confidence in it, just know that it’s probably tapped out for what it’s going to do - Tesla isn’t adding anything to it. AP2.0/AP2.5 are still being updated and, if the HW3.0 upgrade actually materializes, you have a longer upgrade path. AP1.0 can’t be updated to 3.0.

Hope that helps - it’s a lot to digest, but really, all the cars are amazing. Oh - and I have RWD and no issues. — Dan

 

[Alset4S]

AP2 cars are rare. Typically there are 6-10 available on EV-CPO, at the moment there are 5. Prices generally start around 60K give or take a thousand for a 75S at the moment the least expensive is 82K. The better deals go quickly so you have to stay on top of it and move fast. AP1 cars are probably thethe bet value.

For some the refreshed front nose is a must have. Not all 2016's have the refresh.

 

[crazy150]

Thanks guys, this has been extremely helpful.