@nuts opinion on Model Y

[EinSV]

Looks more like 80%

Take a closer look

Only 2.5% of owners “disagreed” or “strongly disagreed” with the statement that “Model 3 is more reliable than my previous cars,” the other 97.5% of owners agreed, strongly agreed or were neutral, in other words believed Model 3 was as reliable or more reliable than their previous cars

I think you are looking at the Model 3 owners who agreed or strongly agreed it was more reliable than their previous cars, but not counting the “neutral” votes.

 

[AdVanced]

Looks more like 80%

He said "as reliable or more reliable". The Neutral takes up about 17.5 percent there.

 

[ewoodrick]

Looks more like 80%

The tan area is folks who effectively said "as reliable"

 

[cucubits]

anyone thinking about buying a tesla, think again. lease it, or avoid it altogether.

semi-bad build quality + bad customer service + horrible insurance rates (artificially generated by Tesla) = not so hot experience all around. Especially for new models like the model Y i'm pretty sure its going to be a repeat of the model 3 -- they are going to rush production 100% hands down, which equates to poor build quality.

Tesla is still a tech company at heart and they havent figured out how important customer loyalty and satisfaction is just yet.

Let me share some of your downvotes

While I did buy a Model S, I agree with what you predict. I am enjoying the car a lot but all the small quirks (man I hate this word *doug*) and bad build quality and bad design choices bother me more than I was hoping they would. I probably couldn't push myself to go back to drive an ICE car but as soon as a good EV choice comes out, I'm switching sides. I'm looking at you Audi.

 

[EVDRVN]

Tesla does have an impact on insurance rates, the cost to repair a vehicle and access to parts determines one factor or premiums. Some car models are very inexpensive to repair and rates reflect this. In addition Tesla keeps promising 3rd party support for repairs but they are dragging their feet and this impacts rates. These are industry facts and insurance companies use actuary tables to determine these rates on multiple levels. On a quality note my 3 has had about $5-8k in repairs, a bit shocking for a new car. I also will be taking it in for yet another issue on a replacement seat. The number of rattles I have is a joke and that is not covered under warranty which is not typical. The number of new 3s I see in service is incredible and my S also had many failures. I know people are very excited to own a Tesla and it may be their first EV but it also creates a bit of a bubble to ignore the facts. The model S is also one of the most expensive cars to insure in the US and it's because of the reasons I stated and Tesla has contributed to that. Let's not live in a bubble, I have owned several Teslas but I do know what I'm getting into and I don't do it blindly. I've also worked on many and know the challenges Tesla presents with parts.

Many issues wit the Y will have been worked out on the 3 but it will present new issues and there will production related issues as well. This is true of any new model car and Tesla is far more laxed about process than traditional car makers. The drive and pack should do very well long term but the body panels and trip will see many issues over time as they don't have this down well yet.

 

[EVDRVN]

Take a closer look

Only 2.5% of owners “disagreed” or “strongly disagreed” with the statement that “Model 3 is more reliable than my previous cars,” the other 97.5% of owners agreed, strongly agreed or were neutral, in other words believed Model 3 was as reliable or more reliable than their previous cars

I think you are looking at the Model 3 owners who agreed or strongly agreed it was more reliable than their previous cars, but not counting the “neutral” votes.

That's not a scientific measure of anything. Miles and they type of previous car matters. The last 5 cars I owned never were in the shop for anything, My 3 and S with under 25K and 5K miles have been in at least 10 times and had about $15K in combined repairs. My GF 1 week three is headed in for issues, my neighbors has been in 3 times, etc. You may want to hang out at a high volume Tesla repair center and see they issues that come in on new cars. Many people that have issues don't post here or even have a TMC account, no one I mentioned does. Many people that come here are die hard Tesla fans so sampling is by no means accurate. What makes this tread off is that every Tesla fan pounces on anything negative or denies the accuracy. We all know how unscientific forum date is and it you doubt it go to a Trump forum and disagree and see what happens I have owned about 12 Evs and my Teslas have been the least reliable so far, meaning need repairs of some type. If you are saying can't drive the car then that's another category. So much for internet accuracy. If you get 200 disagrees that also seems to invalidate actual facts on YMC as well. Just saying let's not live in a bubble because many forums are just that.

 

[EinSV]

That's not a scientific measure of anything. Miles and they type of previous car matters. The last 5 cars I owned never were in the shop for anything,

Bloomberg's survey asked Model 3 owners what cars they traded in. The Top 5 include the Toyota Prius and Honda Accord and Civic -- which all have excellent reliability records.

In fact, the Top 10 list (copied below) is heavily tilted toward cars with good or excellent reliability. Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

So the 97.5% of owners who believed Model 3 was as reliable or more reliable than their previous cars was tilted toward people who had owned cars with good or excellent reliability.

Also, consider that this survey was conducted last year and includes the earliest owners of the Model 3. It is well known that for any car model the first year model tends to have the most reliability problems.

That owners had such positive things to say about the Model 3 under the circumstances is extremely positive for Tesla, and suggests Model Y owners are also likely to have an excellent ownership experience.

Many people that have issues don't post here or even have a TMC account, no one I mentioned does. Many people that come here are die hard Tesla fans so sampling is by no means accurate. What makes this tread off is that every Tesla fan pounces on anything negative or denies the accuracy. We all know how unscientific forum date is and it you doubt it go to a Trump forum and disagree and see what happens I have owned about 12 Evs and my Teslas have been the least reliable so far, meaning need repairs of some type. If you are saying can't drive the car then that's another category. So much for internet accuracy. If you get 200 disagrees that also seems to invalidate actual facts on YMC as well. Just saying let's not live in a bubble because many forums are just that.

The data I posted was NOT from TMC -- it was from Bloomberg, which conducted the most rigorous third-party survey of Model 3 owners I have seen.

The survey included about 5000 owners. To help prevent gaming, Bloomberg required submission of VIN numbers as well as some personal data. Bloomberg is not TMC and there is no reason to believe people who took the survey were more likely to be "die hard Tesla fans" than critics (side issue but I also dispute your premise -- TMC has more than its fair share of people with an agenda to trash Tesla).

It's important to keep in mind that Tesla has sold over 900,000 cars so there are bound to be some negative experiences. The Bloomberg survey (like others) strongly suggests that the overwhelming majority of owners have an excellent ownership experience.

Anecdotes mean nothing. While it's fine to report on bad experiences, the bottom line is that the most rigorous third party survey available found an astoundingly high percentage of Model 3 owners would recommend Model 3 to family and friends, buy again, and believed it was as reliable or more reliable than their previous vehicles, which tended to be of good or excellent reliability.

In light of this data, pretending individual negative issues represent the typical Tesla ownership experience is ridiculous.

 

[Big Dog]

These are industry facts and insurance companies use actuary tables to determine these rates on multiple levels.

Ok, I'll bite. Do you have any data sources for these facts? In other words, have you seen an insurance/actuary table that shows Tesla costs more to insure/repair than comparably priced Euro cars (Audi A3, 3-class Bimmer, C-class Mercedes)?

I don't doubt the common sense that expensive cars are expensive to repair, particularly those with a lotsa of aluminum (which is more difficult to pull dings out of). But the OP was ranting that Tesla was purposely inflating the costs.

 

[EVDRVN]

Ok, I'll bite. Do you have any data sources for these facts? In other words, have you seen an insurance/actuary table that shows Tesla costs more to insure/repair than comparably priced Euro cars (Audi A3, 3-class Bimmer, C-class Mercedes)?

I don't doubt the common sense that expensive cars are expensive to repair, particularly those with a lotsa of aluminum (which is more difficult to pull dings out of). But the OP was ranting that Tesla was purposely inflating the costs.

This is the feedback I'm getting from the dealers and different insurance companies. I't pretty much known that Tesla parts are very expensive and repair times are very long often increasing the bills on rental cars, etc. Even the service people will tel you this. Once Tesla opens up full 3rd party service the cost on repairs will go down. The glass prices on an S are expensive but the labor is very high in comparison to a 3 because of trim removal etc. On a 3 it is still high but far less. Also insurance companies are starting to get more data on 3 repairs and cost as well as accident rates. If anyone thinks that more young people totaling model 3's vs say a Nissan LEAF is not showing up then guess again In time these cost should hopefully go down.

 

[EVDRVN]

@EinSV- "Reliable" is a very loose term. My 3 has be 100% reliable but has had extensive repairs.I drive it to the dealer but that does not mean it has not had problems. If you don't think the 3s have had massive issues then ask a service adviser, that is not to say they are improving over time. The drive system is very reliable.

FYI- Tesla also hides many issues well, faulty ball joints, swing arms, half shafts, etc. These issues are in past production but never recalled and they should have been. There are Model S cars that have fault ball joints on the road today that can easily sheer off, that I know as a fact. Tesla will not recall these cars but if in for an alignment they replace them every time. The casting is defective on a run and brittle and the failure is very scary. That's another story.

 

[EinSV]

@EinSV- "Reliable" is a very loose term. My 3 has be 100% reliable but has had extensive repairs.I drive it to the dealer but that does not mean it has not had problems. If you don't think the 3s have had massive issues then ask a service adviser, that is not to say they are improving over time. The drive system is very reliable.

FYI- Tesla also hides many issues well, faulty ball joints, swing arms, half shafts, etc. These issues are in past production but never recalled and they should have been. There are Model S cars that have fault ball joints on the road today that can easily sheer off, that I know as a fact. Tesla will not recall these cars but if in for an alignment they replace them every time. The casting is defective on a run and brittle and the failure is very scary. That's another story.

Again, your anecdotes are completely meaningless in light of the positive experience of the overwhelming majority of Model 3 owners as reflected in the Bloomberg survey.

The good news is that the Bloomberg survey provides strong evidence that Model 3 is living up to the hope of many that EVs would be much more reliable than ICE cars due to far fewer moving parts. It also debunks the massive smear campaign by short sellers and other Tesla critics about Model 3 in virtually every way.

Tesla's reliability advantage over ICE will only get better with time.

 

[MY Ordered]

Not knowing if it's allowable to upload a screenshot from Consumer Reports, I'll just report "Owner Satisfaction" data,

Overall: "5" on a scale of 1 to 5.

"Would You Buy this Car Again?"

Tesla Model 3: 92%
Audi A4: 77%
Genesis G70: 77%
BMW 3 Series: 68%
Mercedes C-Class: 61%
Acura TLX: 58%
Infiniti Q50: 56%
Lexus IS: 44%

 

[kayak1]

anyone thinking about buying a tesla, think again. lease it, or avoid it altogether.

semi-bad build quality + bad customer service + horrible insurance rates (artificially generated by Tesla) = not so hot experience all around. Especially for new models like the model Y i'm pretty sure its going to be a repeat of the model 3 -- they are going to rush production 100% hands down, which equates to poor build quality.

Tesla is still a tech company at heart and they havent figured out how important customer loyalty and satisfaction is just yet.

Are you just a short seller and someone that we should ask to be removed from the forum (possibly block your IP)?

 

[Big Dog]

This is the feedback I'm getting from the dealers and different insurance companies. I't pretty much known that Tesla parts are very expensive....

Well, Doh!. It's a $50+k, low production, car. They ain't cheap to buy and won't be cheap to repair. ("low production" in comparison to a mass car like Camry which has a gazillion after-market parts manufacturers.)

Yes, rental cars/loaners can be out for a long time, but I've noticed that many insurers are starting to cap rental car reimbursements to a fixed amount of days, say 30, so their exposure is capped regardless of how long it takes to fix the car. (btw: my daughter's Audi A3 was dinged in a parking lot and the repair took 12 weeks to just replace the bumper and a few support brackets.)

(The Leaf is much less expensive to purchase, so...)

 

[Uncle Paul]

What nuts has done is not uncommon. He has taken some negative posts and blown them up to act like all the cars are terrible.

Reality is that while most of the cars are good, with satisfied owners, others have problems. People who get the problems tend to rush to their keyboards to vent to the world how they have been wronged. The happy owners seem to just go about their lives, enjoying their cutting edge electric cars.

All manufacturers have their detractors. All have problems and have programs in place to make their cars even better.

Much of ownership happiness depends on the owners expectations. If you expect a perfect car, you are bound to be disappointed. If you buy a car and feel luck to just be able to own one, you are usually pretty happy with your purchase.

Also, with all mass produced products, there is always the luck of the draw. Some are going to get trouble free for life vehicles, and others will seem to get all the problems in the world. Don't know how to fix this, but understand that every manufacturer is doing what they can to decrease warranty expenses.

 

[BulldogsRus]

The survey included about 5000 owners. To help prevent gaming, Bloomberg required submission of VIN numbers as well as some personal data. Bloomberg is not TMC and there is no reason to believe people who took the survey were more likely to be "die hard Tesla fans" than critics (side issue but I also dispute your premise -- TMC has more than its fair share of people with an agenda to trash Tesla).

It's important to keep in mind that Tesla has sold over 900,000 cars so there are bound to be some negative experiences. The Bloomberg survey (like others) strongly suggests that the overwhelming majority of owners have an excellent ownership experience.

...so to recap Bloomberg took 0.5 percent of all Tesla owners, and somehow you came to the conclusion that "...the overwhelming majority of owners have an excellent ownership experience."

Mind you, Elon himself was forced to go on record to address the subpar customer service and build quality himself, because that's what most CEOs do when there isn't any issues, make headlines to focus on reliability:

How Musk is Trying to Address Tesla's Service Issues - Market Realist

 

[BulldogsRus]

Again, your anecdotes are completely meaningless in light of the positive experience of the overwhelming majority of Model 3 owners as reflected in the Bloomberg survey.

The good news is that the Bloomberg survey provides strong evidence that Model 3 is living up to the hope of many that EVs would be much more reliable than ICE cars due to far fewer moving parts. It also debunks the massive smear campaign by short sellers and other Tesla critics about Model 3 in virtually every way.

Tesla's reliability advantage over ICE will only get better with time.

But you can't point to less than 1% of all Tesla owners as "strong evidence". Early adopters take the highest risks on behalf of the general public and it's well known that they champion the technology they have fiscally invested into. You can't even throw a stone at any of the thousands of Youtube videos of PRO-Tesla user sites and not come away with a laundry list of complaints and issues they've had during ownership. That doesn't mean you can't both love the company but also have issues never seen from past ICE vehicles like fit/finish or poor customer service because it is to be expected from a new company, just look at how far Hyundai has come since inception.

 

[BulldogsRus]

Are you just a short seller and someone that we should ask to be removed from the forum (possibly block your IP)?

Why exactly? Nothing they've claimed is rare or not mentioned even here on a regular basis but yet like so many others here you have this hive mentality that by default any negative experience one has with Tesla somehow means they are either a troll, short seller or don't even own one. What's worse with yours is that you are calling for a ban under the guise of 'we'...just because you disagree with their opinion.

 

[EinSV]

...so to recap Bloomberg took 0.5 percent of all Tesla owners, and somehow you came to the conclusion that "...the overwhelming majority of owners have an excellent ownership experience."

Mind you, Elon himself was forced to go on record to address the subpar customer service and build quality himself, because that's what most CEOs do when there isn't any issues, make headlines to focus on reliability:

How Musk is Trying to Address Tesla's Service Issues - Market Realist

But you can't point to less than 1% of all Tesla owners as "strong evidence".

Ignoring the highest quality data in favor of anecdotes leads to flawed conclusions.

Bloomberg surveyed 5000 people through October 29, 2019. They estimated that 350,000 Model 3s had been sold worldwide by that time, so their survey included 1.4% of Tesla owners, and likely a higher percentage of U.S. owners. Their analysis was far more rigorous than cherry picking reports from owners on the internet, where the most unhappy owners tend to complain loudly.

In the article you link, Elon simply recognizes that Tesla needed to expand its service network, which is not surprising given the incredibly fast growth of Model 3 sales. It is also from January 2018, very early in the Model 3 ramp. As Bloomberg noted, quality improved dramatically through 2019, with initial defects dropping by 44% in one year as Tesla worked through initial production issues (and likely have continued to improve since as Tesla continues to fine-tune its production process).

The fact remains that Bloomberg's survey, which has the highest quality data available on the subject, found 99% of owners would recommend Model 3 to family and friends, 98% would buy again, and 97.5% believed Model 3 was as reliable or more reliable than their previous cars. Those overwhelmingly positive numbers are far more credible than anecdotal reports, which get amplified by droves of short sellers and Tesla permacritics.

Believing in false information because it gets repeated so often is known as the "illusory truth effect."

It is rampant around Tesla because there are so many people who have a vested interest in Tesla failing, so anything negative gets spread far and wide.

"The illusory truth effect (also known as the validity effect, truth effect, or the reiteration effect) is the tendency to believe false information to be correct after repeated exposure.[1] This phenomenon was first identified in a 1977 study at Villanova University and Temple University.[2][3] When truth is assessed, people rely on whether the information is in line with their understanding or if it feels familiar. The first condition is logical, as people compare new information with what they already know to be true. Repetition makes statements easier to process relative to new, unrepeated statements, leading people to believe that the repeated conclusion is more truthful. The illusory truth effect has also been linked to "hindsight bias", in which the recollection of confidence is skewed after the truth has been received." Illusory truth effect - Wikipedia​