Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[Doug_G]

In the application for funding, conditions are spelled out for preferred placements that seem very good. I think they got expert consulting. There's no Ontario manufacturer of charging stations afaik, so no rules favoring one approach over another. One peculiar clause though was requiring proposals for L3 funding be for units taking 480 volt input. Maybe they don't know that most utilities in Ontario are going to provide 600V or 208V and DCQC stations are available that are 600V or 208V compatible and save hosts from having to install extra transformers.

Uh oh... Sounds like maybe a particular manufacturer got that slid in...

Or maybe a more plausible explanation is that they blindly followed otherwise good recommendations from an American source, and they don't know that Ontario utilities mostly supply 600V.

Either way not reassuring.

 

[Breezy]

You probably also belive that Volt style hybrids should get the same "weight" of rebate as a true BEV...

I believe that a 17 kWh battery should get the same rebate in a pure EV or a plug-in hybrid. Can't imagine why it should be otherwise.

Don't get the impression I think this program is perfect. I don't agree with the way all of these rebates have been calculated. There's no reason a Volt (18.4 kWh) should get $11,877 while a Leaf S (24 kWh) gets only $9600.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

There's no reason a Volt (18.4 kWh) should get $11,877 while a Leaf S (24 kWh) gets only $9600.

No reason?

The CVMA’s membership includes FCA Canada Inc.; Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited; and General Motors of Canada Limited.

The CVMA creates a framework within which member companies work together to achieve shared industry objectives on a range of important issues such as consumer protection, the environment and vehicle safety.

The CVMA provides research, information, industry-government advocacy and other services aimed at building a better understanding of the importance of a healthy automotive industry to Canada's economic well-being and prosperity.

 

[Peter_M]

It's probably too late (for now) for Ontario, but I think an incentive program that would work and would be simple is:

• $X rebate (for BEVs and PHEVs) if the battery is bigger than 15 kWh
• an additional $Y rebate if the battery is bigger than 60 kWh

There could be variations, like a "ramp-up" of the rebate from 10-15 kWh and from 40-60 kWh so that there isn't a sudden discontinuity, but that would be "fine tuning".

The idea is that most city driving can be handled by between 15 and 25 kWh/day, and long trips can be handled by 60 kWh or more with high-speed chargers along the route. So you get one incentive if you buy a car that can shift your city driving to electric, and another incentive if you buy a car that can shift your long trips to electric.

And since battery cost is the biggest factor making EVs more expensive than comparable gas cars, subsidizing the battery itself to kick-start the industry and drive costs down seems to make sense.

Thoughts?

 

[Canuck]

I believe that a 17 kWh battery should get the same rebate in a pure EV or a plug-in hybrid. Can't imagine why it should be otherwise. Don't get the impression I think this program is perfect. I don't agree with the way all of these rebates have been calculated. There's no reason a Volt (18.4 kWh) should get $11,877 while a Leaf S (24 kWh) gets only $9600.

No reason? The CVMA’s membership includes FCA Canada Inc.; Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited; and General Motors of Canada Limited. The CVMA provides research, information, industry-government advocacy and other services aimed at building a better understanding of the importance of a healthy automotive industry to Canada's economic well-being and prosperity.

Yes, that's the reason. The incentive is only partly about combating climate change. If that was the only goal, then the Leaf would get the same, or greater, rebate as the Volt. But the government's own press release reads:

"Fighting climate change while supporting economic growth, efficiency and productivity is part of the government's plan to build Ontario up and deliver on its number-one priority to grow the economy and create jobs. The four-part plan includes investing in people's talents and skills, making the largest investment in public infrastructure in the province's history, creating a dynamic, supportive environment where business thrives and building a secure retirement savings plan."

Newsroom : Ontario Making Electric Vehicles More Affordable

Really, we all know it comes down to buying votes, aka lobbying, and all the rest is result-orientated reasoning by government to help ensure re-election. The Liberal Party needed to cement its relationship with the all-important Ontario auto industry vote come Spring of 2018. No one really believes this is all about the environment do they? Government spending is rarely about the target and much more about back room dealings.

 

[S'toon]

Yes, that's the reason. The incentive is only partly about combating climate change. If that was the only goal, then the Leaf would get the same, or greater, rebate as the Volt. But the government's own press release reads:

"Fighting climate change while supporting economic growth, efficiency and productivity is part of the government's plan to build Ontario up and deliver on its number-one priority to grow the economy and create jobs. The four-part plan includes investing in people's talents and skills, making the largest investment in public infrastructure in the province's history, creating a dynamic, supportive environment where business thrives and building a secure retirement savings plan."

Newsroom : Ontario Making Electric Vehicles More Affordable

Really, we all know it comes down to buying votes, aka lobbying, and all the rest is result-orientated reasoning by government to help ensure re-election. The Liberal Party needed to cement its relationship with the all-important Ontario auto industry vote come Spring of 2018. No one really believes this is all about the environment do they? Government spending is rarely about the target and much more about back room dealings.

What jobs? No EVs are manufactured in Canada.

 

[Doug_G]

What jobs? No EVs are manufactured in Canada.

Actually the Rav4EV is made in Ontario; ironically, you can't buy them here.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

What jobs? No EVs are manufactured in Canada.

Full Circle: Is Ontario destined to become a relic of the auto industry?

 

[Canuck]

What jobs? No EVs are manufactured in Canada.

"Final assembly will remain at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck Assembly Center, where the Cadillac ELR is also built. All in all, according to GM, roughly 70 percent of the upcoming Volt’s parts will be made in the United States or Canada within the first year of production."


2016 Chevrolet Volt gets a bigger motor, better range, more American-made parts | Autoweek

 

[RiverBrick]

Actually the Rav4EV is made in Ontario; ironically, you can't buy them here.

No longer in production, though, since Toyota is now able to scam the California air resources board system with the Mirei.

What jobs? No EVs are manufactured in Canada.

The Chrysler Pacifica (in purely V-8, traditional hybrid, and PHEV versions) will be made in Windsor. The PHEV will have a 16 kWh battery, which is why Ontario is awarding a bonus for 16+ kWh, though any environmental logic would require more capacity for extra-credit.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

The Chrysler Pacifica (in purely V-8, traditional hybrid, and PHEV versions) will be made in Windsor. The PHEV will have a 16 kWh battery, which is why Ontario is awarding a bonus for 16+ kWh, though any environmental logic would require more capacity for extra-credit.

 

[RiverBrick]

It's probably too late (for now) for Ontario, but I think an incentive program that would work and would be simple is:

• $X rebate (for BEVs and PHEVs) if the battery is bigger than 15 kWh
• an additional $Y rebate if the battery is bigger than 60 kWh

There could be variations, like a "ramp-up" of the rebate from 10-15 kWh and from 40-60 kWh so that there isn't a sudden discontinuity, but that would be "fine tuning".

...

Thoughts?

My thought is that your concept is fairer, but there's no chance of it being implemented until the Ontario auto industry embraces larger batteries. The best once can hope for is minor improvements to the new plan.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

My thought is that your concept is fairer, but there's no chance of it being implemented until the Ontario auto industry embraces larger batteries. The best once can hope for is minor improvements to the new plan.

I'm hopeful that the Feds will influence the situation. This is unacceptable conduct post COP21 and media would eat it up IMO.

Trudeau Tweets COP21 Photo With Leaders, Says 'We're All In This Together'

I've requested that Feds review: Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

Bold? Yes! Worth it? Yes!

Goal: Tesla gets full EVIP + starts manufacturing in Ontario (gigafactory & auto)

 

[Peter_M]

My thought is that your concept is fairer, but there's no chance of it being implemented until the Ontario auto industry embraces larger batteries. The best once can hope for is minor improvements to the new plan.

You're right - it's sad, though, because as others have said, there's really no EV industry in Ontario.

Here are some interesting quotes from Steve Carlisle, President of GM Canada:

Steve Carlisle, president of GM Canada, said he would like to see the Liberal government, elected last month, move to a system of grants similar to what Ontario offers the auto industry rather than the existing system of loans that must be repaid.
“We’ve been lobbying for this for five years,” he said in an interview Tuesday after a speech in Toronto.“We need to take a hard look at that to make our federal incentive more amenable.”

Source: GM Canada Chief Urges New Government to Boost Industry Aid - Bloomberg Business

and

PG: “What’s your top priority?”

SC: “It’s to build the brands, build sales, and continue to gain traction on market share.”
...
PG: “When it comes to green technology, what is GM banking on?”

SC: “We’re banking on more than one thing. This is why we’re so excited about GM’s Engineering Centre in Oshawa, which focuses on connectivity, environmental technologies, and light-weight materials to support fuel economy. We have to take our core technology — engines and transmissions — not the sexiest thing in the world to a lot of people, but still there’s always room for more refinement. On the new Cruze, we’ve taken a whole leap ahead on the core engine technology. We’re reinvesting in the extended-range electric vehicle so the next gen Volt is better than the prior one and less costly, more price competitive.

We announced the Bolt concept, which is an over 320 km range full-electric vehicle that will be accessible to the mainstream market. And we have diesel technology. What I love is that we’re doing a lot of that development work right here in Oshawa. We do all of the diesel emission fluid additive, which we call DEF, for the corporation in Oshawa. We’re doing a lot of the light-weight work for the corporation in Oshawa, which is great for our brands and our organization. It’s a broad-based portfolio approach that we’re taking to respond to the energy and environment needs.”

Source:On the road with Stephen Carlisle, President and Managing Director, General Motors of Canada Ltd.

Translation: GM's priority is making money [OK], jobs are going to move elsewhere unless the government subsidizes them, and "green" technology to them mostly means making gas cars more efficient.

 

[wayner]

Shouldn't making money be GM's priority? You can argue that long term they can make more money by going electric - is that what you mean?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Shouldn't making money be GM's priority? You can argue that long term they can make more money by going electric - is that what you mean?

Yes and no:


Most of the current major car companies will fail because they can’t adapt to the disruption that electrification is bringing to their industry. They will refuse to cannibalize their other products. They will refuse to shift power and money to the electric divisions. They will refuse to engineer true electric cars because the economics don’t make sense until they don’t have any money to do it, anyway.

This pattern has played out innumerable times over the past 100 years. Remember RCA? Philips? Control Data? Burroughs? Kodak?


Have Tesla and Apple disrupted the auto industry past the point of no return? - Quartz

 

[Peter_M]

Shouldn't making money be GM's priority?

Yes, that's why I said "[OK]"

You can argue that long term they can make more money by going electric - is that what you mean?

Sort of - I meant that they should make money by building better products that people want (i.e. make a significant shift towards EVs) rather than asking for government support to keep building gas cars.

 

[greenspeak]

incentives also apply retroactively to Jan 1 2016.

 

[sitter_k]

incentives also apply retroactively to Jan 1 2016.

Maybe there's a thread in the Nissan Leaf Forum with those who purchased just before Jan 1, 2016 raising hell because they weren't informed of the rebate so they could have delayed their purchase.......

 

[RiverBrick]

incentives also apply retroactively to Jan 1 2016.

Back to November 10, 2015. See Q6: Modernized EVIP - Frequently Asked Questions

A waste of money that would be better spent on future incentives.