Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[mknox]

How many Model S in Norway due to incentives?

I see Norway offering more of a "reward" program for EVs and a "penalties" for ICE cars which is different than Ontario's "incentive" program. (Not discussing which is more effective... that is obvious... just that there is a difference in intent here in Ontario).

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If it came from the Minister's office Mike, then I would consider the result "preordained".

I am willing to bet there is something too...political interference tainting the picture.

Without doubt "perceptions" tainted the results. A left wing government is always going to be sensitive about at least appearing to provide greater benefits to the "rich" and that is just a fact.

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So no consideration for the realities in the market? Ie. Tesla is only serious EV producer? Tesla has already built out a charging network, Big Auto doesn't want to electrify? Big Auto wants Tesla gone, etc? Just a bunch of number crunching?

As I've been trying to say, the program is about incentivizing behavior change and not rewarding it. Assuming Tesla has already been successful and sales would not be significantly affected with a rebate, why would you spend taxpayer money to incentivize someone to do something they were going to do regardless.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Without doubt "perceptions" tainted the results. A left wing government is always going to be sensitive about at least appearing to provide greater benefits to the "rich" and that is just a fact.

I'm Liberal's target demo-far from "rich" and I've probably been most vocal about this. It's common sense for anyone who cares to read an article or two-or better, watch a few Elon videos.

If they need a demo-appropriate spokesman I'm in...just bring Tesla back in to full EVIP. BTW, millenials LOVE Tesla! Libs are doing themselves a disservice by blocking Tesla and millennials will see though it. Smart bunch. If anything-govs should cozy up to brand TESLA, arguably the most valuable brand on the planet-and for all the right reasons.

Tesla has a new kind of customer: The middle-class Millennial - Fortune

 

[Jaff]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if this happens, given the shoddy treatment of Tesla, coupled with the protectionist flavor of these changes.

One good thing (for me) is that perhaps a slight drop in Ontario sales will cause Tesla Motors to shift some of its Supercharger budget East to Quebec.

 

[mknox]

Well, they clearly failed at that goal by making it retroactive. Anyone who had already decided to buy an EV was definitely not influenced by the increased incentive before it was announced, so for them it's a straight reward, not an incentive.

I think the retroactivity was meant to address those who had placed orders on the assumption that the $8,500 was available, but wouldn't take delivery for some period of time.

As for smart incentives to buy EVs, I think a super-off-peak electricity rate at night (say from 1am to 5am) would be a good one. It would make EV operation cheaper and would also encourage people to shift electricity demand to the night in other ways, including home energy storage devices (either batteries or simpler methods like a timer on a water heater).

Yes. Agree 100%. This is something that the WG I'm on is discussing actively. FWIW, I already use a timer on my 60 gal electric water heater. I only run it from 7:00 pm to 7:00 am weekdays and full time on weekends and holidays (i.e. during Off Peak times only). I have not once had an issue where I've run out of hot water.

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I'm Liberal's target demo-far from "rich" and I've probably been most vocal about this. It's common sense for anyone who cares to read an article or two-or better, watch a few Elon videos.

Mee too. I have constantly made the argument that the incentive should be about the switch to cleaner fuel and not about the car you do it in. If you can help a $20k ICE shopper move to a $30K EV, why not help ICE shoppers looking in higher brackets "move up" to an EV as well?

So I don't disagree with all the sentiments here, but am just trying to relay what I know about the current program.

 

[Jaff]

Well said!

Any change to the program that (before the auto industry can actually deliver less expensive, 300 km Evs), hurts the movement, and that is ignorant to me. No reason to make these changes until the less expensive EVs are ready to be delivered.

It is also short sighted of this government to ostracize Tesla today, for who knows what future EV manufacturing opportunities may come to Ontario...business is not stupid, and will have a long memory when stung by poorly drafted, illogical, protectionist legislation.

I'm Liberal's target demo-far from "rich" and I've probably been most vocal about this. It's common sense for anyone who cares to read an article or two-or better, watch a few Elon videos.

If they need a demo-appropriate spokesman I'm in...just bring Tesla back in to full EVIP. BTW, millenials LOVE Tesla! Libs are doing themselves a disservice by blocking Tesla and millennials will see though it. Smart bunch. If anything-govs should cozy up to brand TESLA, arguably the most valuable brand on the planet-and for all the right reasons.

Tesla has a new kind of customer: The middle-class Millennial - Fortune

 

[Peter_M]

FWIW, I already use a timer on my 60 gal electric water heater. I only run it from 7:00 pm to 7:00 am weekdays and full time on weekends and holidays (i.e. during Off Peak times only). I have not once had an issue where I've run out of hot water.

Getting off topic here, but I've had good success with a water heater timer too. I have an 80 gal electric heater with a timer that only enables the lower element from 4am to 6am weekdays and all day on weekends, and I installed meters to measure energy consumption. The upper element is enabled all the time, so it will heat up the top of the tank if necessary during the day. I'm seeing about 85% of the energy usage is on the lower element (so at least that much is off-peak), and there's always enough hot water.

 

[mknox]

Getting off topic here, but I've had good success with a water heater timer too. I have an 80 gal electric heater with a timer that only enables the lower element from 4am to 6am weekdays and all day on weekends, and I installed meters to measure energy consumption. The upper element is enabled all the time, so it will heat up the top of the tank if necessary during the day. I'm seeing about 85% of the energy usage is on the lower element (so at least that much is off-peak), and there's always enough hot water.

Most, if not all standard water heaters will never run the top and bottom elements at the same time. The top element comes on first, and once water at the top of the tank is up to temperature, the thermostat will "flip" and direct power to the lower element. The lower thermostat will open when the whole tank is up to temperature. It is the lower element that does most of the work with the top only coming on if water at the top of the tank starts getting cold. (Cold water enters from the bottom and pushes hot water out the top). I have a sub-meter on my water heater and note that consumption (kWh) is the same with or without the use of the timer. My benefit is that all of my consumption is shifted to the lower price period.

 

[S'toon]

I know a guy outside of town, lives in a straw bale house. He has solar water heating. Free heat.

 

[Peter_M]

Most, if not all standard water heaters will never run the top and bottom elements at the same time. The top element comes on first, and once water at the top of the tank is up to temperature, the thermostat will "flip" and direct power to the lower element. The lower thermostat will open when the whole tank is up to temperature. It is the lower element that does most of the work with the top only coming on if water at the top of the tank starts getting cold. (Cold water enters from the bottom and pushes hot water out the top). I have a sub-meter on my water heater and note that consumption (kWh) is the same with or without the use of the timer. My benefit is that all of my consumption is shifted to the lower price period.

A timer on the whole water heater (which is what I think you're saying you have) works to shift usage, but if you run out of hot water during the day, you're out of luck. With the timer only on the bottom element, the top element will run during the day if needed, and you still shift 85% of usage to off-peak.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Well said!

Any change to the program that (before the auto industry can actually deliver less expensive, 300 km Evs), hurts the movement, and that is ignorant to me. No reason to make these changes until the less expensive EVs are ready to be delivered.

It is also short sighted of this government to ostracize Tesla today, for who knows what future EV manufacturing opportunities may come to Ontario...business is not stupid, and will have a long memory when stung by poorly drafted, illogical, protectionist legislation.

Agree 100%

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Any change to the program that (before the auto industry can actually deliver less expensive, 300 km Evs), hurts the movement, and that is ignorant to me. No reason to make these changes until the less expensive EVs are ready to be delivered.

Case and point! Bring Tesla back in to full EVIP if Ontario cares about the planet. May I suggest the Libs don't want to be on the wrong side of this one:

The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Case and point! Bring Tesla back in to full EVIP if Ontario cares about the planet. May I suggest the Libs don't want to be on the wrong side of this one:

The Kochs Are Plotting A Multimillion-Dollar Assault On Electric Vehicles

View attachment 111930

I'm sure I will be accused of wearing a tin foil hat...but hey, I can kinda connect the dots. Timing makes sense. Koch and Big Auto have similar interests. New EVIP dissadvantages Tesla. Please someone prove me wrong so I can sleep tonight:

Serendipitously, Drevna became a “distinguished senior fellow” at IER last May, after he left his perch running the American Fuel and Petrochemical Manufacturers. The month after Drevna came aboard, the think tank posted a new paper attacking subsidies for a leading player in the electric car market: Elon Musk's Tesla Motors.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Electric Circus

Want to know what’s really behind the slumping price of gasoline? Did you think it was the collapse in oil prices? Nope. It’s a plot. All part of a counterattack against those cool new electric and hybrid vehicles that were on display at the Detroit Auto Show this week. I know this is true because I read it in the Toronto Star.

Peter Foster: Big Autos electric circus

 

[mknox]

A timer on the whole water heater (which is what I think you're saying you have) works to shift usage, but if you run out of hot water during the day, you're out of luck. With the timer only on the bottom element, the top element will run during the day if needed, and you still shift 85% of usage to off-peak.

If you run out of hot water, it will be the top element that comes on first anyway. My timer is part of my Insteon-based home automation system. I put a Water Heater button upstairs "just in case" we run out so that I can over-ride only as necessary. In my house at least, no one has had to push the button once in the last 6 years. I have successfully moved 100% to Off Peak.

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I know a guy outside of town, lives in a straw bale house. He has solar water heating. Free heat.

From what I understand, this is far more effective than solar electric if you have electric hot water. I use between 350 and 450 kWh a month on water heating. I think it would be cheaper to displace that with solar heating than to generate it with solar PV. Unfortunately I have a lot of large trees (does help minimize a/c in the summer), so neither are good options for me.

 

[mrElbe]

I know a guy outside of town, lives in a straw bale house. He has solar water heating. Free heat.

And if it gets really cold, you can always light up the straw bales.

 

[Paul Carter]

I'm not sure if you've seen Bonnie's post in GM More Dirty Tricks Again

Something perhaps the Ontario owners could push. If you need support from other Canadian's I'll be glad to add a hand and drum out support from the Western Canada.

Up next (I just want to get through Indiana first), with short summaries below. If any of these get you personally riled up, please start a thread similar to this one. I'll help. Otherwise I'll get on it later this week.:
....
Ontario – similar to MA, Ontario is instituting an MSRP cap on cars over $75,000 CDN. Cars at that level are only allowed a $3,000 rebate versus a possible $14,000 otherwise. Cars over $150,000 CDN receive zero rebate. Again, an income means test is the smarter way to go if this is really about not subsidizing high income buyers. The Minister of Economic Development and the Minister of Environment are leaning towards us. The Minister of Transportation is pushing back. Owners can also pressure Premiere’s office as well.
....

 

[Jaff]

We'll take all of the help we can get Paul...perhaps you could contact John Dixon of SOTOC about this.

QUOTE=Paul Carter;1385025]I'm not sure if you've seen Bonnie's post in GM More Dirty Tricks Again

Something perhaps the Ontario owners could push. If you need support from other Canadian's I'll be glad to add a hand and drum out support from the Western Canada.[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul Carter]

We'll take all of the help we can get Paul...perhaps you could contact John Dixon of SOTOC about this.

I'm not sure if you've seen Bonnie's post in GM More Dirty Tricks Again

Something perhaps the Ontario owners could push. If you need support from other Canadian's I'll be glad to add a hand and drum out support from the Western Canada.

I'll send him an email. Thx.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I'm not sure if you've seen Bonnie's post in GM More Dirty Tricks Again

Wow-So no paranoid delusions...change to EVIP is part of much larger attack on TESLA.

 

[FourBucks]

Got this in my inbox this morning. I have already responded. Let's go everyone, start writing!

Model S Model X Supercharger Powerwall Support Tesla in Ontario: EV Incentives Have Changed Dear current and future Tesla owners, Earlier this month, the Ontario government announced changes to its Electric Vehicle Incentive Program that reduce the available cash rebate for Tesla buyers from $8,500 to only $3,000. The reduction in Tesla’s eligible rebate was implemented through a cap on rebates for vehicles with a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (“MSRP”) greater than $75,000, which almost exclusively impacts Tesla buyers. We are told that this change was designed to prevent “wealthy” Ontario residents from benefiting from the recently increased rebate amounts. However, we know that many of you, our customers, have stretched well beyond your typical price point to be part of the sustainable transportation revolution with the only fully-capable all-wheel drive electric vehicle available for purchase today. Tesla is vigorously fighting the “MSRP cap.” We are confident that there is a pathway to reversing this decision. We need your help. Please consider contacting the Ministry of Transportation and/or the Premier’s Office to voice your concern over Ontario’s decision to exclude Tesla owners from receiving the expanded incentives. Several of you have already called and written these offices. Thank you. We are already seeing the significant impact of your stories on the government’s view of this situation, but there is more work to be done to carry this momentum. Below is the contact information for the offices behind this decision: Ministry of Transportation: The Honorable Steven Del Duca, Minister of Transportation, 416-327-9200, [email protected] Greg Seniuk, Policy Advisor, 416-314-1784, [email protected] Premier’s Office: Melanie Wright, Chief of Staff, 416-325-6907, [email protected] Alex Phillips, Senior Policy Advisor, 416-314-2598, [email protected] Please note that orders placed prior to February 10, 2016 are still eligible for the $8,500 rebate as long as the delivery takes place and the rebate application is submitted within 6 months of the order date.