Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[vgrinshpun]

Unfortunately I'm here to say this is true. My car was limited just after the 8.0 update and at first I was convinced it was related to that. I did lots of testing and emailed Tesla my findings. Before this limitation my car would pull around 1600 amps from the battery and 512 KW of power when fully charged, now the car will only pull around 1500 amps and and 480KW of power, a loss of about 40 HP on a 4 month old car. I was giving lots of test rides to strangers showing off the car etc as I attend a few car shows a week and I'm was quite upset to have discovered this limitation the hard way rather then Tesla letting us know at purchase about these limitations. After a month of back and forth with Tesla on this I received this reply.

According to Tesla email "The computer systems automatically track launch mode usage and continually estimate fatigue damage. Depending on how launch mode is used, the computer may eventually limit the available power during launch mode to protect the powertrain."

Does 1500 amps limitation exhibited only in launch mode? Can still more than 1500 amps be pulled if your car is NOT in the launch mode?

 

[dandurston]

Wait, what? Yes, the V1 beef is valid. But stating V2 was an over-delivery, subject to retraction following a few launches, when in fact it was finally making the cars do their originally (V1) advertised numbers isn't a "free gift", it's a downright shady tactic and a backhand to every V1 owner who ponied up.

Imagine if the V1 packs DID meet all the performance specs and then Tesla came out with a V2 that was temporarily even faster before reverting to normal V1 performance. Would people be upset here? Probably not, the cars would just have an unexpected and temporary bonus.

So the main beef is with the inadequate V1 performance, which is only ephemerally remedied in V2 before a permanent fix in V3. I think it would be constructive to focus on this, rather than focusing on the counter as the root problem. P90DL V1 & V2 buyers want the sub-10 second cars they thought they were buying. If Tesla can deliver that, there's no issue - if the cars are temporarily even faster, well that's cool while it lasts.

 

[msnow]

Imagine if the V1 packs DID meet all the performance specs and then Tesla came out with a V2 that was temporarily even faster before reverting to normal V1 performance. Would people be upset here? Probably not, the cars would just have an unexpected and temporary bonus.

So the main beef is with the inadequate V1 performance, which is only ephemerally remedied in V2 before a permanent fix in V3. I think it would be constructive to focus on this, rather than focusing on the counter as the root problem. P90DL V1 & V2 buyers want the sub-10 second cars they thought they were buying. If Tesla can deliver that, there's no issue - if the cars are temporarily even faster, well that's cool while it lasts.

Not really. V2 never met the specs either temporarily or permanently but it was quicker and had more horsepower than v1 and people made buying decisions based on that performance but it was a 11.x second car. Tthere's never been a Tesla that was sub 10 nor was that a published spec. What people were looking for was Tesla's claimed 10.9.

 

[racer26]

Not really. V2 never met the specs either temporarily or permanently but it was quicker and had more horsepower than v1 and people made buying decisions based on that performance but it was a 11.x second car. Tthere's never been a Tesla that was sub 10 nor was that a published spec. What people were looking for was Tesla's claimed 10.9.

There's definitely videos on youtube of a guy turning 10.85's in a stock P100D.

I also suspect you could get quite a bit faster if you do a bunch of the weight reduction things some of the Tesla race cars have done.

 

[msnow]

There's definitely videos on youtube of a guy turning 10.85's in a stock P100D.

I also suspect you could get quite a bit faster if you do a bunch of the weight reduction things some of the Tesla race cars have done.

There's YouTube videos of that same kid doing 10.9's or better in a P90DL but it was a v3. The kid also was a "jockey" in that I think he was like 130 pounds and the car didn't have a pano roof, maybe even 19" wheels. But keep in mind Tesla never said at the time the cars had to be no options or that you had to do "weight reductions" to meet their specs. They said it was a 10.9 car but it wasn't until v3.

 

[lolachampcar]

So you do a test drive in a P90DL V2.
You buy the car based on the performance during the test drive.
You get that level of performance for the first XYZ time you own the car.
Then............

Notice I did not say anything about promised performance

 

[msnow]

@MP3Mike - how come you disliked #305, do you have different data?

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Fred's article on Launch Mode Counter:

Tesla confirms that it limits the power of performance vehicles after too many launches with ‘launch mode’

 

[JRP3]

We reached out to Tesla to confirm if they are indeed limiting the output and a Tesla spokesperson sent us the following statement:

“Like other automakers, our performance vehicles continually monitor the condition of various components and may employ limiting strategies to reduce fatigue on the powertrain.”

Hmmm,

 

[vgrinshpun]

So you do a test drive in a P90DL V2.
You buy the car based on the performance during the test drive.
You get that level of performance for the first XYZ time you own the car.
Then............

Notice I did not say anything about promised performance

I think that the key question is whether power is limited in launch mode only, hopefully we get more information on this from @Tech_Guy. Tesla e-mail sent to him seem to imply that limitation applies for launch mode only.

 

[Tech_Guy]

I understand the point you are making.

The problem is that the V3 P90D Ludicrous packs --DID--, finally, meet the specs Tesla had set for the P90D Ludicrous. So in my opinion, the people who have a legitimate beef with Tesla are the P90D Ludicrous V1 buyers, as their cars never met specs, and the P90D V2 Ludicrous buyers, as their cars also never met specs, and now will miss the specs by even more if they launch too much. If Tesla is also limiting V3 P90D Ludicrous buyers, then, of course, they also have a legitimate beef.

The reason this affects all of us is that it is one more example of Tesla playing fast and loose with the facts, and then taking action that many believe are at least somewhat less than ethical. We need to stand up for each other, and let Tesla know that this is not the kind of behavior Tesla customers approve of.

Imagine if the V1 packs DID meet all the performance specs and then Tesla came out with a V2 that was temporarily even faster before reverting to normal V1 performance. Would people be upset here? Probably not, the cars would just have an unexpected and temporary bonus.

So the main beef is with the inadequate V1 performance, which is only ephemerally remedied in V2 before a permanent fix in V3. I think it would be constructive to focus on this, rather than focusing on the counter as the root problem. P90DL V1 & V2 buyers want the sub-10 second cars they thought they were buying. If Tesla can deliver that, there's no issue - if the cars are temporarily even faster, well that's cool while it lasts.

The v3 cars are effected as my car has the v3 battery and has been limited not fixed permanently. The only permanent fix is an upgrade to a p100dl.

 

[Tech_Guy]

I think that the key question is whether power is limited in launch mode only, hopefully we get more information on this from @Tech_Guy. Tesla e-mail sent to him seem to imply that limitation applies for launch mode only.

Yes launchmode only and had I been aware I would have avoided launchmode to maintain my power levels....

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes launchmode only and had I been aware I would have avoided launchmode to maintain my power levels....

To clarify, I think he is talking about after the counter has been reached. Meaning you can still get ~1600A as long as launch mode is not activated, even after you have hit the counter.

If this is the case, then the issue really isn't that significant, given AFAIK launch mode didn't result in significant changes in 0-60 (0.04 seconds) or 1/4 mile times (0.06 seconds). Rather than going by memory, I looked it up and it was under the 0.1 seconds difference I estimated before. Driveline loading just doesn't seem to help very much compared to ICE cars.
Launch Mode Testing on Tesla P90D Ludicrous

However if after you hit the counter, your max is dropped to ~1500A across the board (no matter if launch mode is activated), then that is a different case.

 

[Tech_Guy]

nope once the counter is reached power is reduced in all modes

 

[vgrinshpun]

Yes launchmode only and had I been aware I would have avoided launchmode to maintain my power levels....

So now, after the counter in your car was triggered, if you accelerate the car from standstill WITHOUT engaging launch control, can you still pull more than 1500A? I.E. the software imposed limitation on power output is applied ONLY when car is in launch mode, per the Tesla email that you shared.

 

[stopcrazypp]

nope once the counter is reached power is reduced in all modes

Thanks for the clarification. Then that doesn't match what the Tesla rep is saying (they only refer to power reduced during launch mode) and I think it is a point that needs clarification by Tesla.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Thanks for the clarification. Then that doesn't match what the Tesla rep is saying (they only refer to power reduced during launch mode) and I think it is a point that needs clarification by Tesla.

Well, you beat me with the clarification up-thread, but I beat you with the thought of contacting Tesla

I've sent email to Tesla's VP of investor relationships Jeff Evanson with the request for clarification. I will share his response if I get one.

 

[msnow]

nope once the counter is reached power is reduced in all modes

Yikes, and as George, @NSX1992, has proven you get quicker times at the track by just stomping on the pedal without launch mode. Yeah, I'd be pissed too.

 

[Tech_Guy]

Thanks for the clarification. Then that doesn't match what the Tesla rep is saying (they only refer to power reduced during launch mode) and I think it is a point that needs clarification by Tesla.

Ive done the testing and sent all the data to tesla after a month I finally got that answer.... once launch mode is used to many times the cars power is reduced permanently. Changing modes makes no difference... the pack power is limited no matter what mode your in. What I posted upthread I requested they send me after a few long phone calls on the matter, there is no way to undo the change once the computer decides that limit has been reached it permanently limits the power of the pack. I was also told on the call that if I upgrade to the 100 the launch mode limit is removed permanently. I requested that in writing as I would hate to pay for the upgrade and receive the same limits again...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ive done the testing and sent all the data to tesla after a month I finally got that answer.... once launch mode is used to many times the cars power is reduced permanently. Changing modes makes no difference... the pack power is limited no matter what mode your in. What I posted upthread I requested they send me after a few long phone calls on the matter, there is no way to undo the change once the computer decides that limit has been reached it permanently limits the power of the pack. I was also told on the call that if I upgrade to the 100 the launch mode limit is removed permanently. I requested that in writing as I would hate to pay for the upgrade and receive the same limits again...

Ah I see, I wasn't aware you already tested this in other modes, I just noted the Tesla rep's response that you quoted is inconsistent. Anyways having media or others contact Tesla for clarification may still help. They may walk back on this.