Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Is your point that one of the runs may actually have been close to a 10.9? If so, I'd point out that if one of the runs was better than 11.1, it could have been downhill, with wind assistance.
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Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits
- Thread starter Ingineer
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- Tesla Inc.
Is your point that one of the runs may actually have been close to a 10.9? If so, I'd point out that if one of the runs was better than 11.1, it could have been downhill, with wind assistance.
We know that @Tech_Guy has a ~100 HP loss.
We know that everyone's car has these incrementing counters.
Is anyone else with a car of similar mileage / vehicle age / counter values measuring a similar power loss? Greater? Less?
With a single data point it is impossible to verify what could be a possible counter-initiated downgrade and what could be an unrelated battery pack fault.
Given that we're about to make a pack of lawyers (even) richer it would be really useful if others can provide hard data on this.
To paraphrase Matt Damon, can we science the s**t out of this?
We know that everyone's car has these incrementing counters.
Is anyone else with a car of similar mileage / vehicle age / counter values measuring a similar power loss? Greater? Less?
With a single data point it is impossible to verify what could be a possible counter-initiated downgrade and what could be an unrelated battery pack fault.
Given that we're about to make a pack of lawyers (even) richer it would be really useful if others can provide hard data on this.
To paraphrase Matt Damon, can we science the s**t out of this?
I am all for sciencing the s**t out of this. In the meanwhile I must add, we also have Tesla saying @Tech_Guy's power loss is due to the counters. We know that, unless we assume @Tech_Guy told a lie.
Is it theoretically possible Tesla's reading of the logs is wrong/incomplete (now there's a topic...), sure it is. Is it possible @Tech_Guy lies or misunderstood? Theoretically, of course.
But at the moment the latest word we know of, from Tesla, regarding @Tech_Guy's 100 hp P90DL power loss is: counters.
100 hp power loss is no longer about downgrading 10.8 to 10.9 quarter mile. As said, it is about degrading a P90DL below Insane mode.
This thread started out with hopeful notions that any such power limiter would be hardly noticeable, but I still maintain my question: how could it be. If you run the wire bonds (or whatnot) to a limit on full, how could a very small, incremental hp decrease suddenly make enough difference. Nothing so far suggests that the power limiter would be insignificant, except maybe wishful thinking.
Mind you, I'm not saying the response to the counters is necessarily 100 hp. That is speculative. I am just adding to the raw data: Right or wrong, so far we have data that Tesla does say it is related to the counters and have refused/passed on additional chances to add to/change that information to @Tech_Guy.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
I've asked this TM forum member to join us here. Please be nice 
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Robert | January 14, 2017
I'm experiencing what seems to be this issue. I have a P85D upgraded to Ludicrous mode. I can't break 400kW it seems...
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Robert | January 14, 2017
I'm experiencing what seems to be this issue. I have a P85D upgraded to Ludicrous mode. I can't break 400kW it seems...
"
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
malcolm,
Those with the proper tools loaded can measure power.
One owner has experienced loss which Tesla has attributed to the counters.
Another owner has feedback from Tesla that they are on the way to being limited (#2031)
As of this AM, a member on TM is saying their P85DL is only producing 400 KW
Apart from discovery or decompiling the BMS code, the only option I see is to continue relying on my peeps to do as I have done and ask Tesla where we stand (then post the response). Discovery requires an action and reversing the BMS code is a large undertaking. Either of these things may happen, but, until they do we are sorely lacking options. Tesla holds all the cards and those cards are close to their vest.
Those with the proper tools loaded can measure power.
One owner has experienced loss which Tesla has attributed to the counters.
Another owner has feedback from Tesla that they are on the way to being limited (#2031)
As of this AM, a member on TM is saying their P85DL is only producing 400 KW
Apart from discovery or decompiling the BMS code, the only option I see is to continue relying on my peeps to do as I have done and ask Tesla where we stand (then post the response). Discovery requires an action and reversing the BMS code is a large undertaking. Either of these things may happen, but, until they do we are sorely lacking options. Tesla holds all the cards and those cards are close to their vest.
Sorry to obsess about this particular point but have Tesla staff been briefed correctly?
Or do they just assign any pack loss to "the counters" because it's not something they can correct - just like wear and tear - and it means they don't have to spend time investigating alternatives.
But do they necessarily know how typical counter values relate to power loss values?
We do have a lot of evidence of hard-pressed staff providing incomplete or contradictory information in the past.
Should we be looking at Occam's Razor here?
Thanks @lolachampcar.
I can appreciate the frustration people feel over this. It's so much quicker and more satisfying to lawyer-up than to go slow and science-up.
Which, of course, the lawyers like to use to their advantage. They've got to make a living, same as the rest of us.
I can appreciate the frustration people feel over this. It's so much quicker and more satisfying to lawyer-up than to go slow and science-up.
Which, of course, the lawyers like to use to their advantage. They've got to make a living, same as the rest of us.
Well that is speculation. I just added a known fact what Tesla said of @Tech_Guy's car.
Given that @Tech_Guy's case has been open for months at Tesla and they clearly have escalated it at a point, I would argue the Occam's Razor indeed is they know what they are saying.
Now could they be mistaken and even more happening, maybe, certainly possible, but that is speculation.
I've asked this TM forum member to join us here. Please be nice
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Robert | January 14, 2017
I'm experiencing what seems to be this issue. I have a P85D upgraded to Ludicrous mode. I can't break 400kW it seems...
"
Thanks.
I can't bear the unmoderated and no-ignore-function TM forum. Bring any substantive discussion here
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Tesla is maintaining a database of cars that have been power-limited. Service Centers (I guess you might argue that "at least one service center", but I really think it is safe to assume that it's not just one) have the ability to check a car's VIN against the database, to see if that particular car has been power-limited. (Please see photo of @Az_Rael's service invoice below.)
Why would this mechanism be in place if this was not already, or soon going to be, a somewhat widespread issue?
Everyone, it would be very meaningful if all of us obtained our counters or a service check for the limits.
When I obtained my counts, both service advisers and manager had never heard of the counters before. I pulled the electrek.co article and insisted Tesla service had the answer, I would wait while they researched. It took about 3 minutes for the manager to locate the limit list and to find my VIN.
You really must insist. Just like door handle counters, it is your car, you have reasonable expectation to obtain pertinent vehicle info related to service issues. Launch and mixture counters are there and can easily be provided with appropriate insistence.
When I obtained my counts, both service advisers and manager had never heard of the counters before. I pulled the electrek.co article and insisted Tesla service had the answer, I would wait while they researched. It took about 3 minutes for the manager to locate the limit list and to find my VIN.
You really must insist. Just like door handle counters, it is your car, you have reasonable expectation to obtain pertinent vehicle info related to service issues. Launch and mixture counters are there and can easily be provided with appropriate insistence.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
My request went in last week. I'll be stopping by to get the latest firmware pushed and will check on the status of my request.
They did pull info while I was talking to them. I asked if it was data base or real time and they indicated they were pulling data directly from the car.
They did pull info while I was talking to them. I asked if it was data base or real time and they indicated they were pulling data directly from the car.
SDRick
Active Member
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Almost certainly P model cars not listed in the database are simply not --YET-- power-limited. I don't think we have seen any reason to believe some performance models or individual cars are exempt.
McMuggets
Member
Wow long thread. I just emailed my service manager and asked for my launch and mixture counters. Will post response when I get it for others on this thread.
JLan
Member
After I pointed out this discussion and asked about counters , My Tesla DS said, in writing, that I should not experience any performance restrictions with my P100DL configuration regardless of how many times I use launch mode.
Not really patting myself on the back but it's enough for me to stop going into a mental tailspin over my new p100dL.
My p90dL though.....
davidc18
Active Member
Tech_Guy
ALWAYS IN LUDICROUS MODE! P90D>P100D Upgrade
The delivery specialist is quite low on the totem pole no offense to them but I really wouldn't trust anything they say in regards to the engineering or programing of the car! Try reaching out to a Service Manager or Regional Manager. If they are unaware or unsure as they most likely are, push for them to confirm with the engineers at Fremont and provide a writen answer... My recent call we discussed possible resolutions for my case and they confirmed the p100d limits as well even if I upgraded, so basically id be in the same situation with a 100 as I am now with my p90dl... I was hoping the 100 would remove these restrictions /limits /counters/ etc as well but that is not the case!
Mis-information is everywhere on this as no one knows about it... My service manager originally said the 100 wouldn't be limited in writing months ago but then reversed what he said after talking to the regional manager and engineering team this week! So it could even be a matter of constantly changing information as this comes to the surface.
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Thanks for the info.
Approximately how many times did you use launch mode? Sorry if I missed a previous answer.
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