Quick google search shows this “Other complaints say the Japanese automaker's automatic emergency braking fails to engage when objects are in front of the 2013-2021 Subaru models equipped with EyeSight.” But hey you never had a problem must mean either you are subaru fan boy or just one out of many. Anyway it shows that no one is prefect.
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Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car
- Thread starter RHINO SKIN SOL
- Start date
Now that AP works for me, rather than joining the ranks of PB deniers I will unsub from this thread... if they ever screw it up again with a software update I will be back 
Keith
Keith
mangrove79
Member
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. What's the point of living if there is no comfort?
... jk
I'm very satisfied with my cheap ass Subaru. I didn't pay very much for it and it works flawlessly. The same can't be said for Teslas. The Subies are the cheapest cars I've ever bought new. Hell, my F450 pushes $100k. And my Porsche is well over that. Tesla being the more expensive vehicle that it is, and one that claims to be at the technological cutting edge, should get this part right at least. The adaptive cruise on the F450 works but it's flawed because Ford's version doesn't work below a certain speed. But my Tesla can't tow 35k lbs. Obviously it's not scientific but the Subie forums have nary a complaint about adaptive cruise, but the Tesla forums are littered with complaints about its adaptive cruise. So hey, google away. I know what I've experienced and what I've seen on the forums. I'll call it like it is.
There is a lawsuit pending for that issue by the way with your prefect Subaru
Hmmm - my 2016 and 2020 Mercedes GLEs have a combined mileage > 220,000km
- zero phantom breaking
- 2 legit emergency breaking events - both cars reacted faster than I did and stopped short of the collisions unfolding in front of me
I commute and drive with tacc w/ steering assist ~ 80% of the time and use auto lane change a lot
ie this has already been figured out - there should be no need to accept compromise. Tesla has chosen to do things differently, optical only while my Mercs have 2 rear, 2 forward short range and 1 or 2 long range radars in addition to the optical system but...
That being said, I’ve had my new MY about for about 2 weeks (~1500km) and have had zero PB events. AP has performed beautifully under a variety road and lighting conditions including a 400km round trip of mixed driving yesterday (fast/slow highway, rural 2 lane, trucks, shadows etc) - zero issues - no complaints from the wife
I did miss auto lane change - I wish Tesla would bring EAP back or just offer that feature standalone - AP feels incomplete without it.
My MY was delivered with 2022.11.101.1, maybe Tesla has worked it out - hope there are no regressions in future updates.
Can’t comment on emergency braking, hope that isn’t tested anytime soon
Not arguing against your mentioned experience but if you look up stats of accidents while using AP you will know it’s the safest way to drive your car. And I agree big time with you on EAP! Tesla should sell it for 6k, many people will buy that instead of FSD pie in the sky dream.Hmmm - my 2016 and 2020 Mercedes GLEs have a combined mileage > 220,000km
- zero phantom breaking
- 2 legit emergency breaking events - both cars reacted faster than I did and stopped short of the collisions unfolding in front of me
I commute and drive with tacc w/ steering assist ~ 80% of the time and use auto lane change a lot
ie this has already been figured out - there should be no need to accept compromise. Tesla has chosen to do things differently, optical only while my Mercs have 2 rear, 2 forward short range and 1 or 2 long range radars in addition to the optical system but...
That being said, I’ve had my new MY about for about 2 weeks (~1500km) and have had zero PB events. AP has performed beautifully under a variety road and lighting conditions including a 400km round trip of mixed driving yesterday (fast/slow highway, rural 2 lane, trucks, shadows etc) - zero issues - no complaints from the wife
I did miss auto lane change - I wish Tesla would bring EAP back or just offer that feature standalone - AP feels incomplete without it.
My MY was delivered with 2022.11.101.1, maybe Tesla has worked it out - hope there are no regressions in future updates.
Can’t comment on emergency braking, hope that isn’t tested anytime soon
P.S.
Emergency braking saved our car at least twice that my wife told me about.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Ah, yes. Abstract platitudes are easy. Real life is not. Once again, you fail to see the nuances. Safety is not black and white. It is shades of gray.
How about if the system brakes suddenly for no reason, causes others to brake behind you and causes an accident that injures or kills someone? Well, suddenly the over sensitive AEB/TACC system that you thought was going to save your life has killed someone else. How about when you become desensitized to the alarms to the point that you instinctively press the accelerator and one time you actually hit someone? Or how about the case where someone tires of the alarms and says I'm not going to use the system because it's too much trouble? You will no doubt protest that those situations are situations in which you or other drivers should have been paying attention, but that is the point, is it not? If everyone was paying attention then there would be no need for the AEB system.
Edit: As an example of the dangers of alarm fatigue, there was a case at a local hospital several years ago in which a patient alarm was constantly going off. Eventually someone got tired of it and disabled the alarm only to have the patient suffer a permanent injury when a real danger was missed.
Anyone can sue for anything. Your statement is meaningless.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
That is an interesting "what if...," and I thought about that a lot. However, for all of the PB that was going on (until recently) and all of the complaints, I haven't yet heard of a single accident, let alone injury, caused by PB. Have you? I think that is just amazing and I wonder why we haven't seen accidents reported. Not saying that none happened, but hey. I certainly experienced inappropriate braking, until the latest updates. It certainly worried me and I am aware that there have been plenty of near misses.
Edit: the AAA study convinced me that Subaru has absolutely no ability to detect an oncoming vehicle drifting into your lane and react. Until I hear of any significant accidents due to PB in Tesla systems, I'll be convinced that Tesla safety is superior, what ifs aside.
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sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
You are correct - the only accident that is likely to be reported would be a direct rear-end accident. Downstream accidents would never be associated or reported, except in extreme circumstances. As such, my statement is admittedly theoretical but based on how traffic flow and accidents occur is more than plausible.
As far as the AAA study goes, like I said earlier, Adaptive Cruise is designed to aid an attentive driver by following the car in front of you. The assumption is that you will react to events like cars drifting into your lane and the AAA test is more appropriately applied to AutoPilot than TACC/adaptive cruise.
Statements like yours ("I certainly experienced inappropriate braking, until the latest updates.") give me hope that we can have our Tesla cake and eat it too.
Agreed. Those accidents are theoretically plausible, but where are they? Collectively we've had thousands of PB events. 50 pages in this thread and nobody's mentioned one.
I think when you get out of beta FSB limbo you will see that PB has gone from scary to rare, gentle events. What I don't know is whether Tesla got there by effectively turning forward collision avoidance off, or dumbed it down to the point where it is basically ineffective. I wish AAA would repeat the test today with the current software iterations.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
A few months ago I tried completely disabling AEB, obstacle aware acceleration and everything else I could find and I would still get PB events. They seemed less frequent but it's hard to say for sure. My take away from that experiment was that AEB could have been contributing but there was something else at play. No one can say for sure. Regardless, whether it's because they fixed AEB or they fixed something else I'll be happy!
It's really hard to interpret test done on Teslas like the one AAA did because software revisions can completely invalidate them. A while ago Consumer Reports ragged on the Model 3(?) for unacceptably long braking distances. Tesla looked the problem and corrected it with a software update so that article (and rating) is completely irrelevant now.
I remember when you did that. And you are right. By the time anyone tests any iteration Tesla may have changed things, and it's not like there aren't multiple software versions running at the same time. So testing one Tesla means you've tested one Tesla.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
I was traveling on a 2 lane state highway today and a car going the opposite direction was passing and driving straight towards me in my lane probably 2-300 feet ahead of me. I was on FSD and the car did absolutely nothing to avoid the oncoming car. The car made it back into its lane but didn’t have much room to spare and I ended up taking over. Doesn’t give me a whole lot of confidence in the AEB system. Apparently a car that’s partially in your lane is a problem but someone driving straight towards you at over 100 mph isn’t.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Sorry, no. I didn't even think to hit the dash cam button. :/ I was mainly focused on making sure the car had enough room to get over in time and surprised that the car didn't react at all.
Overall, phantom braking seems to be modestly improved with 2022.12.3.20. I still had several random 5 -10 mph slowdowns for no clear reason but they weren't as frequent as they have been in the past.
Earlier I observed that the car will slow down when someone passes me and this happened 100% of the time during my drive yesterday. With 12.3.20 it will also swerve over to the right. When I'm driving I'll drift over to the far right side of the lane when someone passes to give them more room but this was more of a sudden jerk. If it were a person driving I'd say it acted like they were startled because it was quite sudden, like you jerked the car over to avoid something in the road and was unpleasant/unsettling even when I knew to expect it. Slowing down and moving over is the considerate thing to do when someone passes but it seems like the programmers didn't quite get it right.
My feeling is that a significant portion of PB isnt really PB at all .. after all, how sure can any driver be that the car didn't see something they missed? Sure, not saying all PB falls into this, but I wonder what the percentage is? There have certainly been occasions when I've had the car brake when it took me several seconds to puzzle out why it did so.
(Not reacting to a car coming right at you though is of course something else entirely, and that's a sev1 problem imho.)
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