Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives

[abasile]

Interesting comparison of the top three batteries at Home Battery Backup Power & Incentives | Pick My Solar
With better efficiency = higher amount of rebate. I will send this to CPUC when I submit a program modification with the argument of changing the Developer's Cap.

Can you please explain what you mean when you say "better efficiency"? There's no argument that, for the capacity and power ratings, the Powerwall is the most cost efficient choice. In terms of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency, however, I'm not sure which system is most efficient.

Just found the following link to a PDF with guidelines for submitting a Program Modification: http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7721

Before submitting anything, it appears that it would be best to obtain the support of a Program Administrator. This is a multi-step process indeed!

 

[Kren]

Can you please explain what you mean when you say "better efficiency"? There's no argument that, for the capacity and power ratings, the Powerwall is the most cost efficient choice. In terms of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency, however, I'm not sure which system is most efficient.

Just found the following link to a PDF with guidelines for submitting a Program Modification: http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7721

Before submitting anything, it appears that it would be best to obtain the support of a Program Administrator. This is a multi-step process indeed!

I tend to glaze over technological data. I research and get the info I need and move on. I actually read an article that explains how the SGIP came up with the cost of their rebates. They based it on how efficiently the battery did something. Maybe it was capacity vs. Power rating, or discharge ability. I am really not sure. This is how I came across the Home Battery Backup Power & Incentives | Pick My Solar
I can try to find the article but I am sure someone on this forum will take up the challenge and can come up with the analytical data, calculations, graphs etc. to determine which battery is more efficient when it comes to SGIP rebate.

 

[Kren]

Can you please explain what you mean when you say "better efficiency"? There's no argument that, for the capacity and power ratings, the Powerwall is the most cost efficient choice. In terms of roundtrip charge/discharge efficiency, however, I'm not sure which system is most efficient.

Just found the following link to a PDF with guidelines for submitting a Program Modification: http://www.cpuc.ca.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=7721

Before submitting anything, it appears that it would be best to obtain the support of a Program Administrator. This is a multi-step process indeed!

Actually, I think you would be better at submitting the Program Modification. I think it is something that can use input and support from someone who is more technologically savvy. Better to have one good submission to the CPUC then a hodge podge individual submissions. I will PM you with some ideas I had rolling around in my head.

 

[NuShrike]

Hmm, 7 weeks since I applied for a Developer key and still waiting. Only one response from [email protected], 4 weeks ago. Very frustrating!

I just got notice I got my SCE Developer key approved. Also, Tesla finally called to set-up self-survey, etc.

Good day.

 

[wwhitney]

I just got notice I got my SCE Developer key approved. Also, Tesla finally called to set-up self-survey, etc.

That's crazy, I just got the email below from the PG&E Program Administrator, whom I appealed to because I have received no response from [email protected] (I'm a PG&E customer). Needless to say, this email prompted a lengthy response from me. For the curious, as of 12/3/2017 there were 6 homeowner developers with in process SGIP applications using Tesla as the installer.

Cheers, Wayne

Tesla confirmed with us that they do the majority of the development activities for their customers. The development work they do are:

• Install the AES system
• Pull the permit for the AES
• Apply for interconnection
• Submit Measure and Evaluation data

In light of this, the SGIP Working Group doesn’t think that any customer buying Tesla equipment would qualify as their own developer. I apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused.

 

[wwhitney]

I just got notice I got my SCE Developer key approved. Also, Tesla finally called to set-up self-survey, etc.

A follow up question: is the key you got only good for Step 3 and later (when the revised developer definition takes force), or is it good for Step 2?

I think I see where our developer applications diverged: I submitted the original application on 10/26, and got a query back 3 weeks later about some details, including who will do the install. In my response I mentioned that Tesla will be doing the install. You submitted the new application on 11/28, which includes the new list of development activities, but doesn't ask who will be doing the install. So your application went through without any further interrogatories.

Regardless, the program has language that issuing a developer key is not an approval of the role of developer and that applications may be reviewed for this issue. So if the email I posted previously is accurate, all homeowner developer/Tesla installer applications are potentially in trouble. Let us know if the developer status is reviewed when you submit your RRF.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Kren]

That's crazy, I just got the email below from the PG&E Program Administrator, whom I appealed to because I have received no response from [email protected] (I'm a PG&E customer). Needless to say, this email prompted a lengthy response from me. For the curious, as of 12/3/2017 there were 6 homeowner developers with in process SGIP applications using Tesla as the installer.

Cheers, Wayne

Tesla confirmed with us that they do the majority of the development activities for their customers. The development work they do are:

• Install the AES system
• Pull the permit for the AES
• Apply for interconnection
• Submit Measure and Evaluation data

In light of this, the SGIP Working Group doesn’t think that any customer buying Tesla equipment would qualify as their own developer. I apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused.

This is a shame. It's PG&E. They turned on homeowner applicants big time. If you were able to get your Key, they appear not to be accepting a PMP that is not from Tesla and of course Tesla won't give it to you. So that would also kill your application. I mean theoretically you could pull your own permit and apply for your interconnection couldn't you? Any, sorry to hear they have become so strict.
[edit] I realize now from previous posts that you did not plan to submit a PMP.

 

[NuShrike]

That's crazy, I just got the email below from the PG&E Program Administrator, whom I appealed to because I have received no response from [email protected] (I'm a PG&E customer). Needless to say, this email prompted a lengthy response from me. For the curious, as of 12/3/2017 there were 6 homeowner developers with in process SGIP applications using Tesla as the installer.

That's weird as I have no mention of Tesla in my developer's application. Where did they get that idea for you?

Also, isn't [email protected] your PA?

I wonder if this will be a wall I'm going to hit further down if I list the equipment as a Tesla battery?

 

[NuShrike]

A follow up question: is the key you got only good for Step 3 and later (when the revised developer definition takes force), or is it good for Step 2?

The approved dev list says valid for "All" steps.

 

[Kren]

A follow up question: is the key you got only good for Step 3 and later (when the revised developer definition takes force), or is it good for Step 2?

I think I see where our developer applications diverged: I submitted the original application on 10/26, and got a query back 3 weeks later about some details, including who will do the install. In my response I mentioned that Tesla will be doing the install. You submitted the new application on 11/28, which includes the new list of development activities, but doesn't ask who will be doing the install. So your application went through without any further interrogatories.

Regardless, the program has language that issuing a developer key is not an approval of the role of developer and that applications may be reviewed for this issue. So if the email I posted previously is accurate, all homeowner developer/Tesla installer applications are potentially in trouble. Let us know if the developer status is reviewed when you submit your RRF.

Cheers, Wayne

This is my biggest fear. I am at the end now. I need to submit last few documents. They can kill my application at anytime. When I submitted my developers application back in August, I wasn't even sure I would be installing a Tesla. With the new developer's rule I think you are right, it's going to be impossible if you go with a Tesla battery and have PG&E as your utility. I hope the folks already in the process might get "grandfathered" in. They started the process under different, more lenient guidelines. I am already drafting an appeal to the CPUC just in case my application is denied in the 11th hour.

 

[wwhitney]

I mean theoretically you could pull your own permit and apply for your interconnection couldn't you?

I already submitted my own interconnection application. [My Tesla rep couldn't confirm that the docusign document they sent me would preserve my NEM 1.0 PV status and referred me to PG&E when I asked. So I just submitted my own interconnection application the way PG&E told me to.]

As for an electrical permit, I may end up applying for my own electrical permit and doing a bunch of the preparatory work myself. I've already redesigned the installation details to my preferences. If the SGIP program allowed and Tesla would cooperate, I would do the whole install myself. [I have Square D QO equipment already, so I want the new panels to be Square D QO. And I don't have a huge amount of space, so I want to avoid using any 200A panels. In the past I rewired my entire house as an owner/builder with permits.]

So I strongly feel that I'm the majority developer here and will pursue this further. I guess my last resort is complaining to the CPUC.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Kren]

I already submitted my own interconnection application. [My Tesla rep couldn't confirm that the docusign document they sent me would preserve my NEM 1.0 PV status and referred me to PG&E when I asked. So I just submitted my own interconnection application the way PG&E told me to.]

I totally forgot about that. I am in the same situation. I am installing tomorrow. I will cancel it if they can't guarantee they will preserve my NEM 1.0....

As for an electrical permit, I may end up applying for my own electrical permit and doing a bunch of the preparatory work myself. I've already redesigned the installation details to my preferences. If the SGIP program allowed and Tesla would cooperate, I would do the whole install myself. [I have Square D QO equipment already, so I want the new panels to be Square D QO. And I don't have a huge amount of space, so I want to avoid using any 200A panels. In the past I rewired my entire house as an owner/builder with permits.]

So I strongly feel that I'm the majority developer here and will pursue this further. I guess my last resort is complaining to the CPUC.

Cheers, Wayne

It is a matter of interpretation of the handbook. They now seem to interpret that the installer and all install related activities are the developer and developer activites. This was not the case earlier on. This definition would have stopped me immediately from pursuing my own SGIP funds and I would have had to consider taking this project in a different direction. They changed the rules. For me this rule change comes at the end of my application process. I think for you, you can argue that you already performed many of the development activities before Tesla even became involved with project. Anyway, good luck. Let us know if you decide to pursue it further and the outcome.

 

[wwhitney]

I totally forgot about that. I am in the same situation. I am installing tomorrow. I will cancel it if they can't guarantee they will preserve my NEM 1.0....

The people to call are the interconnection department of your POCO (power company) to find out if Tesla has submitted the application correctly. Adding energy storage is a modification to the existing renewable generation, but as you are not changing the size of the renewable generator, it does not trigger an automatic change to NEM 2.0. At least that is PG&E's interpretation. However, when filling out the interconnection application I was offered the choice to switch to NEM 2.0, so it is possible to get the application wrong. Your POCO's process may be different.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Kren]

The people to call are the interconnection department of your POCO (power company) to find out if Tesla has submitted the application correctly. Adding energy storage is a modification to the existing renewable generation, but as you are not changing the size of the renewable generator, it does not trigger an automatic change to NEM 2.0. At least that is PG&E's interpretation. However, when filling out the interconnection application I was offered the choice to switch to NEM 2.0, so it is possible to get the application wrong. Your POCO's process may be different.

Cheers, Wayne

I received the number for SCE interconnection department. They assured me that a battery storage system will not trigger a change and no amendment to the new interconnection agreement needs to be made. Thanks. I just needed to be sure. -k

 

[NuShrike]

It is a matter of interpretation of the handbook. They now seem to interpret that the installer and all install related activities are the developer and developer activites.

I didn't mark installation on the dev app, and that was accepted, for SCE (for now).

 

[dailo]

I'm considering the 3 powerwall config, but not sure if it would be too late for SGIP by now. I don't think I have used 15 kWh during any 1 hour period, but I could probably do that by charging two cars at the same time. Do you have a link that explains the requirements for the large scale system? As long as the application for SGIP is after the interval, I assume that would qualify?

For a residential customer placing a new order with Tesla for Powerwalls today, I thought it would be interesting to comparing pricing on 1, 2, or 3 Powerwalls, based on the assumption that Tesla's capacity for the SGIP Small Residential Storage is full booked in all steps, but that there is availability for SGIP Large Storage Step 2. [For SCE customers, Step 2 is already sold out, so it would be Step 3.]

My quote for 1 Powerwall was $7,700 and change, which includes the hardware ($5,500 for the Powerwall, $700 for the Gateway), $800 for installation, $150 for permitting, and sales tax (9.25%) on the hardware. So I'll assume 2 Powerwalls would be $13,700 and 3 Powerwalls would be $19,700. This is pretty much the best case scenario, no other upgrades required.

For 1 or 2 Powerwalls with no SGIP rebate, the only incentive is the ITC. [Edit: I'm assuming an adequately large solar system and charging the Powerwalls only from solar.] After that 30% incentive the net cost without SGIP is $5,400 for 1 Powerwall or $9,600 for 2 Powerwalls.

For 3 Powerwalls, the SGIP Large Storage category requires that the system size (in kW) be no greater than the customer peak demand over the last 12 months. Residential rate plans don't include any demand charges, so residential meters just record energy used over an interval of time (either 15 minutes or 60 minutes). The imputed demand for the interval is the just the average power used over an interval. So to qualify for 3 Powerwalls under SGIP Large Storage, you need to have had an interval during the last 12 months in which you used 15 kW average over that interval. 15 kW = 62.5A @ 240 V.

Assuming you make it over that hurdle, the Step 2 incentive rate is $0.40/Wh without the ITC, or $0.29/Wh with the ITC. Using a discharge duration of 2.7 hours (some use 2.64 hours), the incentive per Powerwall is $4,700 without the ITC, or $3,400 plus change with the ITC.

So for 3 Powerwalls under the Step 2 SGIP Large Storage, the out of pocket cost if not taking the ITC would be $5,600. If taking the ITC, the cost after SGIP before ITC would be $9,500, and after the ITC it would be $6,650. Odd.

The upshot is that for a new Tesla Powerwall residential customer who could qualify for SGIP Large Storage for 3 Powerwalls (12 month peak demand is at least 15 kW), with the above minimum installation costs, it's bascially a buy 1 get 2 free situation: $5,400 net for 1 Powerwall, or $5,600 net for 3 Powerwalls. Of course, if you can find a non-Tesla developer who won't gouge you on the installation costs, then under SGIP Small Residential Storage Step 2, the cost of 1 Powerwall would be less then $5,400. [If my attempt to self-develop pans out, then it would be $3,000 for me with SGIP only, or $2,100 if I also took the ITC.]

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwhitney]

I'm considering the 3 powerwall config, but not sure if it would be too late for SGIP by now. I don't think I have used 15 kWh during any 1 hour period, but I could probably do that by charging two cars at the same time. Do you have a link that explains the requirements for the large scale system? As long as the application for SGIP is after the interval, I assume that would qualify?

See the SGIP Handbook, section 5.3.2, page 46 of the December 18, 2017 PDF (2017 Version 6). The operative sentence is "Energy storage projects, whether paired or stand-alone, may be sized up to the Host Customer’s previous 12-month annual peak demand (kW)." This is referring to the size of inverter in terms of the continuous power output (5 kW per PowerWall), not the capacity in terms of energy.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[dailo]

Thanks! Looking at my PGE history, there were a few intervals I hit 5 kWh in a 15 minute interval, so roughly 20kW peak.

 

[dailo]

I called Tesla Sales and they said they aren't taking any SGIP applications until Step 5 including Large Storage, but didn't sound like the person I spoke with knew anything about Large Storage.

 

[NuShrike]

I called Tesla Sales and they said they aren't taking any SGIP applications until Step 5 including Large Storage, but didn't sound like the person I spoke with knew anything about Large Storage.

I also had that response yesterday from my TE sales-rep -- all 5 steps of the quota have been reserved.