Question About Last Week's Announcement

[sandpiper]

The action is to brake suddenly... there are no other possible actions which could be taken by a human or computer... and the computer will brake before you could. Again a positive outcome vs human.

I think you're getting the point but perhaps choosing to ignore it.

 

[brkaus]

I think the legal implications are also huge and will take a long time to sort out.

But there is some simplicity in "the car just stops as fast as it can" if there is no way out.

What happens when school age boys learn that a Tesla coming at them will always swerve, regardless of what it hits? It will be more fun that throwing the football over cars while waiting at the bus stop.

 

[JeffK]

I think the legal implications are also huge and will take a long time to sort out.

But there is some simplicity in "the car just stops as fast as it can" if there is no way out.

What happens when school age boys learn that a Tesla coming at them will always swerve, regardless of what it hits? It will be more fun that throwing the football over cars while waiting at the bus stop.

You could do that now with people. Except the people will get out of the car and run you down...

The Tesla would/should not swerve into a non-open path.

 

[Tony8489]

As with vaccines, I think it's likely that a per incident liability cap will be passed into law. The manufacturers and business beneficiaries (lowered costs) with their lobbying $$ plus the majority of the public eager to use the technology will make this law a fairly easy sell to legislators.

The trial lawyers have plenty of political influence too, but my bet is they will lose this battle.

 

[Eric S]

I think you're both focusing on remote edge cases when much more obvious, frequent, and unfeasible snags will arise.

In cities, the only thing keeping pedestrians patiently waiting on sidewalks (instead of trying to cross streets in front of cars) is their uncertainty re: the attention, competence, and sobriety of approaching driver. If cars dependably screech to a halt whenever you dangle a leg (or a baby carriage or an umbrella) in front of them, then every pedestrian becomes an invincible King of Traffic, and every urban area becomes irresolvably choked. Unless you put a cop on every single corner, you won't mitigate via enforcement.

It's fatal. Traffic nerds concede it won't work unless we elevate urban traffic above current street levels.

 

[JeffK]

I think you're both focusing on remote edge cases when much more obvious, frequent, and unfeasible snags will arise.

In cities, the only thing keeping pedestrians patiently waiting on sidewalks (instead of trying to cross streets in front of cars) is their uncertainty re: the attention, competence, and sobriety of approaching driver. If cars dependably screech to a halt whenever you dangle a leg (or a baby carriage or an umbrella) in front of them, then every pedestrian becomes an invincible King of Traffic, and every urban area becomes irresolvably choked. Unless you put a cop on every single corner, you won't mitigate via enforcement.

It's fatal. Traffic nerds concede it won't work unless we elevate urban traffic above current street levels.

The flaw with your arguments falls solely on the words "much more obvious, frequent" and there are many cities who have pedestrian right of way laws and they flow just fine.

 

[Az_Rael]

I think you're both focusing on remote edge cases when much more obvious, frequent, and unfeasible snags will arise.

In cities, the only thing keeping pedestrians patiently waiting on sidewalks (instead of trying to cross streets in front of cars) is their uncertainty re: the attention, competence, and sobriety of approaching driver. If cars dependably screech to a halt whenever you dangle a leg (or a baby carriage or an umbrella) in front of them, then every pedestrian becomes an invincible King of Traffic, and every urban area becomes irresolvably choked. Unless you put a cop on every single corner, you won't mitigate via enforcement.

It's fatal. Traffic nerds concede it won't work unless we elevate urban traffic above current street levels.

As sad as this is, I can totally see this happening. Right now where I live people will regularly jaywalk very slowly across a four lane 45mph road not taking oncoming traffic into consideration at all. And that's WITH all the distracted drivers on the roads today. I have to drive that section of road with eagle eyes because I never know if someone is going to step out in front of me. And they do bring traffic to a halt when they do it.

 

[Eric S]

The flaw with your arguments falls solely on the words "much more obvious, frequent"

So you're saying the dilemma of whether to mow over little Jimmy or else plow directly into that truck will be more likely and frequent than the dilemma of pedestrians exploiting their priority?

and there are many cities who have pedestrian right of way laws and they flow just fine.

Under present conditions, yes. Are you posting from the future, where autonomous cars are the norm? If so, please offer stock tips.

 

[Eric S]

Right now where I live people will jaywalk very slowly across a four lane 45mph road not taking oncoming traffic into consideration at all.

That, too, is an edge case. I'm talking about low/no speed urban situations, e.g. cars trying to move when light turns green if every pedestrian knows there's no peril to jay-walking. A mere umbrella would be a magic wand able to control oncoming traffic (this is leaving aside the above-mentioned edge case of morons chucking stuff into fast traffic to cause swerves).

 

[Az_Rael]

The flaw with your arguments falls solely on the words "much more obvious, frequent" and there are many cities who have pedestrian right of way laws and they flow just fine.

I think the fear of injury or death keeps most people following the rules (se my above example of a road where people don't care and already play chicken with oncoming traffic causing problems). Once people figure out they are less likely to be injured at all stepping in front of a car, there will be a subset of the population who will take advantage.

 

[Az_Rael]

That, too, is an edge case. I'm talking about low/no speed urban situations, e.g. cars trying to move when light turns green if every pedestrian knows there's no peril to jay-walking. A mere umbrella would be a magic wand able to control oncoming traffic (this is leaving aside the above-mentioned edge case of morons chucking stuff into fast traffic to cause swerves).

I think that "edge case" might also become more common in certain areas once people figure out traffic will always stop. I agree that city centers could become undriveable unless drivers can override the sensors and inch their way through. These situations already occur at big events now - I attend comic con every year in downtown San Diego and the pedestrians do snarl up traffic, making driving through the area almost impossible.

I have to assume that if these issues became too common, though, laws around pedestrian rights of ways and penalties for jaywalking might increase.

 

[JeffK]

I think that "edge case" might also become more common in certain areas once people figure out traffic will always stop. I agree that city centers could become undriveable unless drivers can override the sensors and inch their way through. These situations already occur at big events now - I attend comic con every year in downtown San Diego and the pedestrians do snarl up traffic, making driving through the area almost impossible.

I have to assume that if these issues became too common, though, laws around pedestrian rights of ways and penalties for jaywalking might increase.

As I've mentioned these are already enforced in many places around the world and traffic flow just fine. If not in those areas humans would not assume cars are self-driving or in self-driving mode until saturation is much much greater... 2-3 decades maybe?

 

[Eric S]

As I've mentioned these are already enforced in many places around the world and traffic flow just fine. If not in those areas humans would not assume cars are self-driving or in self-driving mode until saturation is much much greater... 2-3 decades maybe?

You swing your umbrella, thrust your baby carriage, or dangle your leg and you'd find out PDQ if the approaching car's autonomous or not.

Also, most sources predict saturation much much sooner than that. And sooner still for trucks. Lots of rear-end accidents when trucks brake to a halt even farther in advance of umbrella wavers.

On highways, pedestrian aversion would be edge case stuff. In cities, quite obviously not.

 

[JeffK]

You swing your umbrella, thrust your baby carriage, or dangle your leg and you'd find out PDQ if the approaching car's autonomous or not.

Also, most sources predict saturation much much sooner than that. And sooner still for trucks. Lots of rear-end accidents when trucks brake to a halt even farther in advance of umbrella wavers.

On highways, pedestrian aversion would be edge case stuff. In cities, quite obviously not.

In cities where pedestrians have the right of way and there are strict laws, if a person is even standing near the crosswalk people slam their brakes. It's completely normal in those areas. It's not like that where I live as drivers are more aggressive, but I've certain been to such places. In those areas, if an autonomous car did the same then that'd be normal.

 

[Eric S]

It's not like that where I live as drivers are more aggressive, but I've certain been to such places. In those areas, if an autonomous car did the same then that'd be normal.

Those are not the areas I'm talking about.

 

[JeffK]

Those are not the areas I'm talking about.

An area that's not like that is Rome... where pedestrians do not have the right of way. However, in Rome and anywhere else in the world as a driver I wouldn't want to hit a person because that would damage my car (might also damage the person, but let's be real, we care more about the car.). No matter where you are you don't want to hit objects.

If there's an object in the road or approaching the road where a collision is deemed imminent then the car will likely take action. If not then it won't.

Waving an umbrella is not going to do anything unless the umbrella flies out into the road.