Really nice interview with Elon

[Peteski]

I assume you mean Pre-Delivery Inspection at the shop?
That's far too late. It's factory inspection but then again line inspection if not at time of manufacturing ... robots badly programmed?

Both ideally. Although I was of a mindset that they are probably more time stressed at the factory and a shop PDI should be carried out regardless. Some of the howlers that currently get through to customers are embarrassing. If some of the common issues are related to automated processes then of course those should be monitored more closely to save time down the line.

 

[CDN-Build]

they said they would invite early FSD buyers to the early access program. Then they decided not to.

they said we would get priority for software updates, then they decided not to.

the things that are outside of their control? They're just wrong about those. But the things like the above where they have the ability and decided not to? That makes liars.

Again, you’re calling him/Tesla a liar.
Situations change in business constantly. A decision one day, may not work the next. Change that impacts decisions, isn’t necessarily and automatically lying like you are insisting.
He/Tesla could have lied about those things of course. But knowing who he is, what he’s doing, and how honest to a fault he can and has been. I’ll lean more on the side that “Things changed, so his decisions had to also”. Again, big difference from lying.

But if you are insisting his decisions, regardless of any circumstances that are or aren’t known, without a doubt means Elon is a liar, so be it. Those are your unshakable beliefs, and likely why you promote a bias in that direction in most of your threads.

 

[Peteski]

I don’t think Elon is a liar, but I don’t believe everything he says is true either! I think he basically says how he would genuinely like things to turn out in his ideal world. That doesn’t make him a liar if things don’t go his way.

 

[jjrandorin]

most people would call someone saying something repeatedly that doesnt turn out to be true, someone who is lying (kind of the general definition of the word). That elon hasnt told the truth on quite a few of his pronouncements is actually beyond debate.

What is debatable, is the REASON for those pronouncements being not true.

That can be discussed / argued whatever, but the fact that many of his statements ended up being not true, cant be.

 

[Knightshade]

Again, you’re calling him/Tesla a liar.

Situations change in business constantly. A decision one day, may not work the next. Change that impacts decisions, isn’t necessarily and automatically lying like you are insisting.

I mean- he promised specific things that he then failed to deliver on.

Things it was entirely within his power to deliver on, but didn't.

(the software updates and early access invites for example).


He also promised specific things he failed to deliver on that were him just optimistically guessing (most everything he ever promised around FSD so far for example- or how he told us like 2 years ago they'd have their entire NA service buildout covered in 3-6 months when they're still not nearly done....)


I could probably be convinced his overly optimistic things he can't actually do or took way longer aren't lies per se.... he still wants and intends to do them after all...

But I don't think I could be that the things he 100% could do, and promised to, then didn't, and never did anything to make it up to those to whom he broke promises, aren't lies.

 

[CDN-Build]

most people would call someone saying something repeatedly that doesnt turn out to be true, someone who is lying (kind of the general definition of the word). That elon hasnt told the truth on quite a few of his pronouncements is actually beyond debate.

What is debatable, is the REASON for those pronouncements being not true.

That can be discussed / argued whatever, but the fact that many of his statements ended up being not true, cant be.

I think I just see things differently, because INTENT behind commitments to me dictates if it’s a lie. NOT just that it didn’t end up happening.
For example: He said he would sell 500,000 cars by years end, and didn’t. By your definition, he lied.
My company has annual goals and commitments that are communicated to employees. Unfortunately, we do miss on some of those goals. We’ve even moved the bar, reset commitments and missed those also. None of which were lies.
If he makes a commitment(s) and misses, it certainly could be a lie, but it could just have not happened for a number of reasons, even if it seemed it was in his power.
A commitment not happening, isn’t necessarily a lie. Maybe someone could view a miss as indistinguishable from a miss or a lie. Who knows.
Because most of us don’t know why most of his commitments were missed, it’s up to each individual to determine if they believe he’s lying or not.
On this forum I just see a lot of “He said this date, and it didn’t happen, what a liar” kind of attitude going on.

 

[jjrandorin]

I think I just see things differently, because INTENT behind commitments to me dictates if it’s a lie. NOT just that it didn’t end up happening.
For example: He said he would sell 500,000 cars by years end, and didn’t. By your definition, he lied.
My company has annual goals and commitments that are communicated to employees. Unfortunately, we do miss on some of those goals. We’ve even moved the bar, reset commitments and missed those also. None of which were lies.
If he makes a commitment(s) and misses, it certainly could be a lie, but it could just have not happened for a number of reasons, even if it seemed it was in his power.
A commitment not happening, isn’t necessarily a lie. Maybe someone could view a miss as indistinguishable from a miss or a lie. Who knows.
Because most of us don’t know why most of his commitments were missed, it’s up to each individual to determine if they believe he’s lying or not.
On this forum I just see a lot of “He said this date, and it didn’t happen, what a liar” kind of attitude going on.

Goals are just that" we would like to...." As @Knightshade and @run-the-joules pointed out, he promised things that are completely within his ability to deliver (like beta access for early purchasers of FSD) and those did not materialize. Just about anyone would consider that a fabrication.

At work, if you say "I would like to have that project done by XXX", or "our goal is to have the project done by YYY", thats one thing. If you tell your boss, when he asks you how the project is going "I am almost done, it will be done on friday" and then friday comes and he asks you again and finds out you havent even started, well, then you lied to him / her.

There is a difference.

Dont get me wrong, I like my car, I dont think tesla is an evil company, and for the most part, even though I dont particularly agree with many things elon says that dont have anything to do with cars / his company, I dont think he is an evil person or pathological liar.

I DO think though, he is waay too optimistic about some things, even after repeatedly failing to deliver, and some things he straight up fabricated (like the above "we will let early purchasers of FSD into the beta".

I am not trying to turn this into some referendum on him (there is an entire thread thats 100s pages long for that already here at TMC), I dont think he is a "Liar" but I do think he lied about some things that were within his control to do something about, and is at least super optimistic about others where it benefits him / the company.

 

[CDN-Build]

Goals are just that" we would like to...." As @Knightshade and @run-the-joules pointed out, he promised things that are completely within his ability to deliver (like beta access for early purchasers of FSD) and those did not materialize. Just about anyone would consider that a fabrication.

At work, if you say "I would like to have that project done by XXX", or "our goal is to have the project done by YYY", thats one thing. If you tell your boss, when he asks you how the project is going "I am almost done, it will be done on friday" and then friday comes and he asks you again and finds out you havent even started, well, then you lied to him / her.

There is a difference.

Dont get me wrong, I like my car, I dont think tesla is an evil company, and for the most part, even though I dont particularly agree with many things elon says that dont have anything to do with cars / his company, I dont think he is an evil person or pathological liar.

I DO think though, he is waay too optimistic about some things, even after repeatedly failing to deliver, and some things he straight up fabricated (like the above "we will let early purchasers of FSD into the beta".

I am not trying to turn this into some referendum on him (there is an entire thread thats 100s pages long for that already here at TMC), I dont think he is a "Liar" but I do think he lied about some things that were within his control to do something about, and is at least super optimistic about others where it benefits him / the company.

I think you summed it up when you said “I do think he lied about some things.”.
It’s your belief. It’s what you think. Again, I don’t know he didn’t. I just don’t think he did. You don’t really know either, but you’re still calling him a liar.

Your example that someone that says they would have work done by Friday and doesn’t is a liar, isn’t right.
This doesn’t make that person a liar unless they knew when they made the commitment, that they would not have it done by Friday.
Did Elon KNOW when he said he would have early access to some folks that he wouldn’t. ?
I don’t think he knew that then. I think things changed.
There are lots of reasons this may have become a bad idea. Doesn’t mean he lied like you state.
My whole point is that just because he missed on something like the early access program, and likely could have made that happen that he then is a liar.
This is very black and white thinking.
He may have realized much later on that this is not a good idea any longer.
So he’s terrible in this instance of clear communication around why he isn’t doing it, but not necessarily a liar.
Have you made commitments to someone, then didn’t follow through even if you could have. ?
Are you a liar, or did things change. ?
Welcome to big business.

 

[Knightshade]

If he makes a commitment(s) and misses, it certainly could be a lie, but it could just have not happened for a number of reasons, even if it seemed it was in his power.

It seems like he something prevented him from doing something he explicitly promised, then failed, to deliver- he could explain that.


For FSD he usually dismisses his earlier promises by saying "it's hard"

Or when explaining the re-write he gave a somewhat longer explanation about local maximums, processing video instead of still individual shots, etc.

He was unable to meet his promise, but had a reason why (and it was a promise to do something he wasn't actually capable of doing when he made it- so clearly an aspirational thing and he missed his target).


But.

For stuff like not inviting the early FSD adopters in the early access program, he appears to have just promised to give them something that already exists and could be given at $0.00 cost with a few clicks in order to shut them up.

Those folks were upset in the first place because they'd already been lied to.

They were promised when they bought FSD that doing so at the time guaranteed them the lowest price, and it would only be higher later.

Then Tesla put it on sale cheaper than they paid for it.


When this was raised to him he promised anyone who paid more would get a refund to the sale price.

Then he broke that promise too (he at least offered an excuse there- claiming Tesla couldn't afford to- something he ought to have known when he made the promise but ok).

His next offer was to the folks he'd now broken 2 promises to was to invite them all to early access.

Which he also didn't do.

And did not even shown enough respect for those early adopters to mention it again or even offer an excuse for it.


As with jjrandorin I don't think he's an evil guy or anything. I think he's a brilliant person. I love my car. I've got quite a bit of $ invested in the company. I have a lot of faith in its future (and that of his other companies).

That doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he never breaks his word. He's still human. He still says, and does, stupid things. (*cough*covid*cough*)

irrationally excusing every single thing he does is...well...not rational.

Did Elon KNOW when he said he would have early access to some folks that he wouldn’t. ?
I don’t think he knew that then. I think things changed.
There are lots of reasons this may have become a bad idea.

Like what, specifically?

And how bout when he promised they'd have earlier access to normal updates? Like they'd at least be at the front of the line for those.

Which was also a lie.

What "reasons" would there be to not keep that promise either?

 

[CDN-Build]

It seems like he something prevented him from doing something he explicitly promised, then failed, to deliver- he could explain that.


For FSD he usually dismisses his earlier promises by saying "it's hard"

Or when explaining the re-write he gave a somewhat longer explanation about local maximums, processing video instead of still individual shots, etc.

He was unable to meet his promise, but had a reason why (and it was a promise to do something he wasn't actually capable of doing when he made it- so clearly an aspirational thing and he missed his target).


But.

For stuff like not inviting the early FSD adopters in the early access program, he appears to have just promised to give them something that already exists and could be given at $0.00 cost with a few clicks in order to shut them up.

Those folks were upset in the first place because they'd already been lied to.

They were promised when they bought FSD that doing so at the time guaranteed them the lowest price, and it would only be higher later.

Then Tesla put it on sale cheaper than they paid for it.


When this was raised to him he promised anyone who paid more would get a refund to the sale price.

Then he broke that promise too (he at least offered an excuse there- claiming Tesla couldn't afford to- something he ought to have known when he made the promise but ok).

His next offer was to the folks he'd now broken 2 promises to was to invite them all to early access.

Which he also didn't do.

And did not even shown enough respect for those early adopters to mention it again or even offer an excuse for it.


As with jjrandorin I don't think he's an evil guy or anything. I think he's a brilliant person. I love my car. I've got quite a bit of $ invested in the company. I have a lot of faith in its future (and that of his other companies).

That doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he never breaks his word. He's still human. He still says, and does, stupid things. (*cough*covid*cough*)

irrationally excusing every single thing he does is...well...not rational.





Like what, specifically?

And how bout when he promised they'd have earlier access to normal updates? Like they'd at least be at the front of the line for those.

Which was also a lie.

What "reasons" would there be to not keep that promise either?

I think he makes commitments, then sometimes flies by the seat of his pants in many respects. This causes problems, especially if he doesn’t communicate well.
As for what reasons there would be for missing his commitments, well in business, there are a hundred reasons commitments aren’t met.
Healthy debate, but you and a few others on this thread believe he is a liar, and no one will change that belief.
Even though many of your examples don’t have the all important information of WHY these commitments aren’t met. The why is crucial, because if the why is because he knew he wasn’t going to carry it out, he lied in that case for sure. If he intended on doing it, and later realized he couldn’t, he didn’t lie.
At least in my eyes, that’s how lies work.

Anyway, you folks carry on believing he’s a liar, and I will carry on believing he’s overly optimistic, not good at setting achievable goals, (sometimes), and has his mind set on actual change that no other companies would ever consider.
I won’t argue with you folks on this any more, because I can’t change your minds, so I give up.

 

[run-the-joules]

It seems like he something prevented him from doing something he explicitly promised, then failed, to deliver- he could explain that.


For FSD he usually dismisses his earlier promises by saying "it's hard"

Or when explaining the re-write he gave a somewhat longer explanation about local maximums, processing video instead of still individual shots, etc.

He was unable to meet his promise, but had a reason why (and it was a promise to do something he wasn't actually capable of doing when he made it- so clearly an aspirational thing and he missed his target).


But.

For stuff like not inviting the early FSD adopters in the early access program, he appears to have just promised to give them something that already exists and could be given at $0.00 cost with a few clicks in order to shut them up.

Those folks were upset in the first place because they'd already been lied to.

They were promised when they bought FSD that doing so at the time guaranteed them the lowest price, and it would only be higher later.

Then Tesla put it on sale cheaper than they paid for it.


When this was raised to him he promised anyone who paid more would get a refund to the sale price.

Then he broke that promise too (he at least offered an excuse there- claiming Tesla couldn't afford to- something he ought to have known when he made the promise but ok).

His next offer was to the folks he'd now broken 2 promises to was to invite them all to early access.

Which he also didn't do.

And did not even shown enough respect for those early adopters to mention it again or even offer an excuse for it.


As with jjrandorin I don't think he's an evil guy or anything. I think he's a brilliant person. I love my car. I've got quite a bit of $ invested in the company. I have a lot of faith in its future (and that of his other companies).

That doesn't mean he's perfect, or that he never breaks his word. He's still human. He still says, and does, stupid things. (*cough*covid*cough*)

irrationally excusing every single thing he does is...well...not rational.





Like what, specifically?

And how bout when he promised they'd have earlier access to normal updates? Like they'd at least be at the front of the line for those.

Which was also a lie.

What "reasons" would there be to not keep that promise either?

exceptionally well put and I agree on basically all counts. I have a very serious bug up my butt about Elon/Tesla's treatment of customers but I absolutely adore my car. It's especially upsetting because as it stands now it will be my last tesla because while I can excuse quality issues, or neglectful customer service, or all sorts of other stuff (I'm a former Audi and VW enthusiast. We are gluttons for pain), it's the *actively making things worse by breaking promises you didn't have to make* thing that pushed me away. I'd have bought at least one car every 3 years and likely 2 cars on overlapping cycles, but now I'm just like "guess I'll wait for the Germans to catch up ‍ "

it's not too late for them to save their relationship with me, and wouldn't even cost them money. But their hubris has cost them someone who just a few years ago was one of their cheerleaders who thought they could do no wrong.