Redwood Ohlins coilovers vs KW Variant 3 coilovers

[miracj]

What is the difference between the KW Variant 3 TVR-A (Twin Valve Rebound - Adjustable) technology for their coilovers and the Redwood Motorsports Ohlins with Dual Flow Valve (DFV) technology?

Redwood Motorsports definitely have a comfort version, but it's not clear if the KW coilovers are adjustable to a comfort version, but the text seems to indicate it.

And while the Ohlins can be adjusted without removing the tires, it is not clear to me how easy the KW can be adjusted.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[whisperingshad]

What is the difference between the KW Variant 3 TVR-A (Twin Valve Rebound - Adjustable) technology for their coilovers and the Redwood Motorsports Ohlins with Dual Flow Valve (DFV) technology?

Redwood Motorsports definitely have a comfort version, but it's not clear if the KW coilovers are adjustable to a comfort version, but the text seems to indicate it.

And while the Ohlins can be adjusted without removing the tires, it is not clear to me how easy the KW can be adjusted.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Throw MPP into that equation too.
Redwood you can adjust front and rear easily, MPP you can get the front but the rear needs to be lifted to adjust(uses KW).
Would have gone Redwood but couldn't justify the 1k premium over the MPP..(after price went up for upp/mpp its only 750 more)

 

[thesmokingman]

I'm pretty sure the differences have been covered before?

Anyways, the bodies stainless (heavy) vs alu (lighter). The valving on KW is dual adjustable for low speed bump/rebound however high speed bump is fixed. The Ohlins is dual adjustable however their ratios between bump/rebound is fixed, ie. each turn of adjustment changes both bump and rebound. Personally the Ohlins wins beside the fact that the DFV is a better technology, fixed high speed bump is rather limiting. In this case the Ohlins might be better compared to the KW Clubsports which adds high speed bump adjustment. Then there's the bodies, besides the materials the Ohlins bodies are threaded for dual height adjustment which makes them better suited for max height applications. Material wise the KW's stainless body and coating means they are highly corrosion resistant whereas alu bodies will need extra care especially in snowy climates.

 

[miracj]

Throw MPP into that equation too.
Redwood you can adjust front and rear easily, MPP you can get the front but the rear needs to be lifted to adjust(uses KW).
Would have gone Redwood but couldn't justify the 1k premium over the MPP..(after price went up for upp/mpp its only 750 more)

I would have included MPP, except they say they don't use KWs, even though everyone says it is (including some statements I believe from MPP saying they do). It is also not clear (at least to me) if MPP is using TVR-A tech or not, so I just said KW V3 to be clear,

Add in the fact that Tesla have some indications of maybe being able to put air suspension in the MY based on latest Beta FSD indicating some of those options. That would probably be my 1st choice, with the KW V3 or Ohlins being my 2nd choice. I only get one shot at this, so the choice has to be right for this neophyte.

 

[whisperingshad]

I would have included MPP, except they say they don't use KWs, even though everyone says it is (including some statements I believe from MPP saying they do). It is also not clear (at least to me) if MPP is using TVR-A tech or not, so I just said KW V3 to be clear,

Add in the fact that Tesla have some indications of maybe being able to put air suspension in the MY based on latest Beta FSD indicating some of those options. That would probably be my 1st choice, with the KW V3 or Ohlins being my 2nd choice. I only get one shot at this, so the choice has to be right for this neophyte.

IF you have the money, go Air.

 

[thesmokingman]

A bag setup is going to cost around $7K ish... aftermarket, looks like crap inside the frunk cuz you have this big ass compressor taking up the whole space. A retrofit is no doubt not a realistic expectation from Tesla considering the complexity and cost.

 

[whisperingshad]

A bag setup is going to cost around $7K ish... aftermarket, looks like crap inside the frunk cuz you have this big ass compressor taking up the whole space. A retrofit is no doubt not a realistic expectation from Tesla considering the complexity and cost.

Actually can look REALLY awesome, and are in the undertrunk....All the ones in the Socal club look awesome.

 

[thesmokingman]

Actually can look REALLY awesome....All the ones in the Socal club look awesome.

What looks awesome? The drop or the loss of your frunk?

 

[miracj]

A bag setup is going to cost around $7K ish... aftermarket, looks like crap inside the frunk cuz you have this big ass compressor taking up the whole space. A retrofit is no doubt not a realistic expectation from Tesla considering the complexity and cost.

An advantage to the air suspension from Tesla is ideally it wouldn't use the frunk space and would be tied into the User Interface of Tesla.

That said, I think the appearance of options for air in the Beta FSD software is just one of those things that will go away.

 

[whisperingshad]

What looks awesome? The drop or the loss of your frunk?

The good installs fab stuff and make it look awesome, like a show car. Dont care about the drop lol. Most good installs use the undertrunk, but have seen some decent frunk ones also. Plus the frunk is a bit small to use often anyways for most things, I just have a insulated bag from in there in case i get food etc.

 

[Corndart]

I'm pretty sure the differences have been covered before?

Anyways, the bodies stainless (heavy) vs alu (lighter). The valving on KW is dual adjustable for low speed bump/rebound however high speed bump is fixed. The Ohlins is dual adjustable however their ratios between bump/rebound is fixed, ie. each turn of adjustment changes both bump and rebound. Personally the Ohlins wins beside the fact that the DFV is a better technology, fixed high speed bump is rather limiting. In this case the Ohlins might be better compared to the KW Clubsports which adds high speed bump adjustment. Then there's the bodies, besides the materials the Ohlins bodies are threaded for dual height adjustment which makes them better suited for max height applications. Material wise the KW's stainless body and coating means they are highly corrosion resistant whereas alu bodies will need extra care especially in snowy climates.

You've articulated some differences but haven't declared a victor

 

[thesmokingman]

You've articulated some differences but haven't declared a victor

I've been warned not to write anything critical of one of the vendors on here.

 

[tm1v2]

You've articulated some differences but haven't declared a victor

"X is always better than Y for everyone" is rarely true. Is a Model Y better than a Model 3? Depends on your priorities! Is a McLaren better than a Tesla? Not with my finances, and not for taking multiple passengers or driving in the snow. I think this thread asks a great question that I've been wondering myself. But ultimately we each need to make our own decisions based on our own priorities. How boring would it be if we all agreed on the best car and it became the only one on the road?

I went with Redwood Öhlins DFV based on my experience test driving a non-Tesla EV that came with Öhlins DFV from the factory. Fantastic damping on that Öhlins-equipped car, very firm + sporty + controlled yet very smooth and refined at the same time. Not soft or magic carpet ride, just firm-smooth, I don't know a better way to describe it. Made the M3P suspension feel harsh, soft, and unrefined in comparison.

Of course driving a different car with factory-equipped Öhlins DFV doesn't tell me what Redwood Öhlins DFV on a Tesla will feel like, but I think the potential for really good things is there. I'll find out soon hopefully once Öhlins USA works through their backlog of orders (supply chain delays, COVID delays, and now they need to prioritize all the racing team orders for upcoming race seasons).

I'm quite certain I would find KW v3 or MPP's KW-based kit a nice upgrade vs stock too. I just don't have any experience with KW dampers, at least not in recent memory, and rarely have I been so impressed with the ride vs handling tradeoff as with that Öhlins DFV equipped car. I liked its suspension even more than Magneride active dampers which were on another EV I tested (and which were also a lot better than stock Model 3 or Y suspension).



Last thought: Multi-way adjustable like KW v3 seems useful for fine tuning a race car, but wouldn't be my choice for street or even casual HPDE use. I'd rather someone more experienced (MPP, Redwood, etc) figure out a good balance of compression+rebound for the car and just give me one adjustment curve for overall firmness. That's just my preference though! If you find value in the KW v3 dual adjustment don't let me talk you out of it.

 

[Corndart]

"X is always better than Y for everyone" is rarely true. Is a Model Y better than a Model 3? Depends on your priorities! Is a McLaren better than a Tesla? Not with my finances, and not for taking multiple passengers or driving in the snow.

I went with Redwood Öhlins DFV based on my experience test driving a non-Tesla EV that came with Öhlins DFV from the factory. Fantastic damping on that Öhlins-equipped car, very firm + sporty + controlled yet very smooth and refined at the same time. Not soft or magic carpet ride, just firm-smooth, I don't know a better way to describe it. Made the M3P suspension feel harsh, soft, and unrefined in comparison.

Of course driving a different car with factor-equipped Öhlins DFV doesn't tell me what Redwood Öhlins DFV on a Tesla will feel like, but I think the potential for really good things is there. I'll find out soon hopefully once Öhlins USA works through their backlog of orders (supply chain delays, COVID delays, and now they need to prioritize all the racing team orders for upcoming race seasons).

I'm quite certain I would find KW v3 or MPP's KW-based kit a nice upgrade vs stock too. I just don't have any experience with KW dampers, at least not in recent memory, and rarely have I been so impressed with the ride vs handling tradeoff as with that Öhlins DFV equipped car. I liked its suspension even more than Magneride active dampers which were on another EV I tested (and which were also a lot better than stock Model 3 or Y suspension).



Last thought: Multi-way adjustable like KW v3 seems useful for fine tuning a race car, but wouldn't be my choice for street or even casual HPDE use. I'd rather someone more experienced (MPP, Redwood, etc) figure out a good balance of compression+rebound for the car and just give me one adjustment curve for overall firmness. That's just my preference though! If you find value in the KW v3 dual adjustment don't let me talk you out of it.

Thanks, this is helpful, I'm firmly in the street / daily driver suspension improvement camp. Adding more players into the mix has caused me analysis paralysis.

Note - I don't have vehicle yet, unclear how much stock suspension is going to be a problem, but based on a few test rides, it was far from ideal on a MYLR.

 

[tm1v2]

Thanks, this is helpful, I'm firmly in the street / daily driver suspension improvement camp. Adding more players into the mix has caused me analysis paralysis.

Note - I don't have vehicle yet, unclear how much stock suspension is going to be a problem, but based on a few test rides, it was far from ideal on a MYLR.

I had the same feeling about the Y suspension. Very busy ride for a family crossover. Sportier than most crossovers but still not the handling of a good sports sedan (I think that's really difficult in a taller vehicle). As a point of comparison, a Macan we test drove both rode and handled better than the Y. (I didn't like the Macan, in most aspects the Y completely blew it away, but the Macan did show that a CUV can have better suspension tuning than the Y and without fancy active dampers or air springs.)

The 3 rides and handles a lot better than the Y in my opinion, but suspension control is still lacking compared to some sporty 4 doors, and the ride could be smoother too, though it doesn't bother me at all with 18" wheels on it now. Based on all our test driving I ordered the Redwood Öhlins kit before we even picked up the car. Tesla's got their supply chain and pandemic affects under tight control though, so the car was ready first by a long shot.

I'll note that even my wife, who's not at all into sporty cars or track days or anything like that, clearly noticed and agreed that the Öhlins-equipped EV had a better suspension than the Tesla 3 or Y. She didn't push back at all when I asked if I could put the same kind of Öhlins dampers on the M3P.

 

[thesmokingman]

Last thought: Multi-way adjustable like KW v3 seems useful for fine tuning a race car, but wouldn't be my choice for street or even casual HPDE use. I'd rather someone more experienced (MPP, Redwood, etc) figure out a good balance of compression+rebound for the car and just give me one adjustment curve for overall firmness. That's just my preference though! If you find value in the KW v3 dual adjustment don't let me talk you out of it.

Hmm... it depends. The KW V3 have fixed high speed bump so that's not a great thing on a track. If you've ever launched a car at 100mph over an expansion joint, you'll know having locked high speed bump sucks ass. And having separate low speed bump and rebound isn't always a blessing cuz you can get the values way out of synch so it's best to keep them within a defined ratio. This is where having an adjustment that raises both bump and rebound within a ratio keeps the settings from getting way out of synch. That and the fact that the other set scales bump to rebound thru the whole range vs having a locked high speed bump, ie. one is better than the other.

 

[tm1v2]

Dang, what racetrack has that bumpy of an expansion joint? Or was your suspension just *that* stiff?

In my very limited racetrack experience they were pretty smooth. Even if the pavement wasn't fresh and had some texture, I didn't encounter big potholes, heaves, missing chunks of pavement, root intrusions, ill-maintained expansion joints, abandoned railroad crossings, etc. A car that felt quite stiff and firm on the street still feel soft on track (because of higher cornering forces + less need for suspension compliance). (Another car that felt soft on street felt like a boat on track .)

My mental model is that the ideal suspension for driving fast on roads is much more rally car than racetrack car. Many of the best, emptiest stretches of twisty road I get to drive on would probably throw a super stiff, low track/race car down a ravine. Okay I'm being hyperbolic there, but I think there's some truth to it.

 

[thesmokingman]

Dang, what racetrack has that bumpy of an expansion joint? Or was your suspension just *that* stiff?

In my very limited racetrack experience they were pretty smooth. Even if the pavement wasn't fresh and had some texture, I didn't encounter big potholes, heaves, missing chunks of pavement, root intrusions, ill-maintained expansion joints, abandoned railroad crossings, etc. A car that felt quite stiff and firm on the street still feel soft on track (because of higher cornering forces + less need for suspension compliance). (Another car that felt soft on street felt like a boat on track .)

My mental model is that the ideal suspension for driving fast on roads is much more rally car than racetrack car. Many of the best, emptiest stretches of twisty road I get to drive on would probably throw a super stiff, low track/race car down a ravine. Okay I'm being hyperbolic there, but I think there's some truth to it.

Once you've hit an expansion joint at 100+mph you'll understand what mean. There are many sections of road around socal where the average speed is over 80mph. And sections of the toll corridor ppl literally cruise around 90mph. And I hate hitting those expanion joints at high speeds on KW V3 cuz the car comes crashing down onto the bumps because I cannot raise the high speed bump to fit the conditions. Secondly on an actual track you'll want control over high speed bump but you don't get that option w/o moving up to the Clubsports. Anyways, my point was just a small one about highspeed bump control or lack of.

Stiffness, it's not about stiffness it's about the tire compounds. You can go as stiff as there is traction, past the tire's limit more stiff = loss of traction.

 

[tm1v2]

Oh gotcha, socal highway expansion joints are awful. They're like a torture test for sporty suspensions. And sometimes soft suspensions fail too if they have floaty tendencies.

 

[Corndart]

Once you've hit an expansion joint at 100+mph you'll understand what mean. There are many sections of road around socal where the average speed is over 80mph. And sections of the toll corridor ppl literally cruise around 90mph. And I hate hitting those expanion joints at high speeds on KW V3 cuz the car comes crashing down onto the bumps because I cannot raise the high speed bump to fit the conditions. Secondly on an actual track you'll want control over high speed bump but you don't get that option w/o moving up to the Clubsports. Anyways, my point was just a small one about highspeed bump control or lack of.

Stiffness, it's not about stiffness it's about the tire compounds. You can go as stiff as there is traction, past the tire's limit more stiff = loss of traction.

Those freeway expansion joints were precisely where the MYLR suspension disappointed. It wasn't the impact of the joint necessarily, but the subsequent bouncing fore/aft of the Y afterwards that had me concerned. Whatever best sorts that out is the suspension upgrade for me