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So how did it go?
We know;
Tesla hired Fisker and rejected the design.
But
Was that design the Karma?
Or was that design something else we have not seen?
Then there is Elon's design.
So are we talking about a possible 3 or 4 car designs.
Personally I love the Karma (minus grill) and I actually think the Roadster is a bit pabulum. Especially when you compare it to other supercars that make strong design statements.
It's probably a good thing to have a plain sports car for sales to be so mainstream (like painting your house beige to appeal to the most buyers)
But there is a whole science that makes cars like the PT Cruiser, The Crossfire, and the Prowler that are supposed to make a statement. There is a passion that these car owners have that a clean and unadorned car does not generate. That said, a Roadster owner's passion is probably more EV related so design can go more bland.
We know;
Tesla hired Fisker and rejected the design.
But
Was that design the Karma?
Or was that design something else we have not seen?
Then there is Elon's design.
So are we talking about a possible 3 or 4 car designs.
Personally I love the Karma (minus grill) and I actually think the Roadster is a bit pabulum. Especially when you compare it to other supercars that make strong design statements.
It's probably a good thing to have a plain sports car for sales to be so mainstream (like painting your house beige to appeal to the most buyers)
But there is a whole science that makes cars like the PT Cruiser, The Crossfire, and the Prowler that are supposed to make a statement. There is a passion that these car owners have that a clean and unadorned car does not generate. That said, a Roadster owner's passion is probably more EV related so design can go more bland.
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Tesla management are being ultra cautious (or ultra-choosy - your choice) about the Whitestar design. It has got to be right.
Lotus were (presumably) passed over first time around. Tesla's Whitestar team couldn't nail it. Henrik can't do grilles for some reason, so now it's Lotus (again?)
Correct? Or is it just another example of the Perfect being the enemy of the Good?
Lotus were (presumably) passed over first time around. Tesla's Whitestar team couldn't nail it. Henrik can't do grilles for some reason, so now it's Lotus (again?)
Correct? Or is it just another example of the Perfect being the enemy of the Good?
Or how about the question of "why now?" Fisker unveiled the Karma nearly 3 months ago. Oh wait, it was 3 months ago. Tesla has had more than enough time to draft a complaint and file the thing. Granted, usually lawyers do some sabre rattling until there is no other choice but to file suit, so maybe that's the lag.
But from a PR perspective, and a production perspective WHY NOW?
But from a PR perspective, and a production perspective WHY NOW?
paco3791
TMC OG
I think a more interesting question is when was fisker doing the design and when did the delay of 3-6 months take place. if the fisker was unveiled 3 moths ago we have to assume they had some time between their Tesla design work and the karma, so was this collaboration going on a year ago? two years? and if that is the case what exactly are we waiting for on the new whitestar design? when it is unveiled later this quarter are we going to see a working prototype again ala the roadster? Man I hope the unveiling comes sooner than later, I can't wait to compare whitestar to the info we have for GMs volt!
I'll survive with either the specs revealed now OR the design. I don't need both right away. I'm very nice that way, are you listening Tesla? 
Cobos
Cobos
First of all, where's TEG? We need his impeccable internet research skills to chart out a time line of relevant events for us.
I don't think Tesla should put out any images of Whitestar until at least a few Roasters get into customers' hands. The folks at Tesla need to keep their eyes on the ball.
That said, the question of "why now" with the lawsuit is a good one. Perhaps it does have to do with the pending unveiling of the Whitestar. Elon may very well be trying to lower expectations.
Let's hope that this is not the case:
Elon's design process
Whitestar
I don't think Tesla should put out any images of Whitestar until at least a few Roasters get into customers' hands. The folks at Tesla need to keep their eyes on the ball.
That said, the question of "why now" with the lawsuit is a good one. Perhaps it does have to do with the pending unveiling of the Whitestar. Elon may very well be trying to lower expectations.
Let's hope that this is not the case:
Elon's design process
Whitestar
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I will say that Tesla has gotten off to a BAD start on the litigation. I tried pulling the court docs online, and the good news is the dockets are online. The complaint image has not yet been scanned in. But getting back to my point.
Musk should have kept his mouth shut for a couple of reasons. First he says that Fisker stole his design in some sort of a claim for "unfaithful servant" or breach of contract claim. Okay, that's fine and dandy. But Musk further states he design was inferior. So now Fisker has supposedly stolen a crappy design. That sounds a bit inconsistent to me and a hard sale to a jury. Bad move by Tesla.
Second, there is no chance of Tesla showing their production of Whitestar has been set back 3-6 months. This product is in development and one need only look to the Roadster to see delay after delay to know that Whitestar was nowhere near production ready. Another claim a jury will slam Tesla on.
Musk can accuse Fisker of anything he wants, but if I were Fisker, if Tesla won't back out of this...I'd counterclaim back and let the cards fall where they may.
Musk should have kept his mouth shut for a couple of reasons. First he says that Fisker stole his design in some sort of a claim for "unfaithful servant" or breach of contract claim. Okay, that's fine and dandy. But Musk further states he design was inferior. So now Fisker has supposedly stolen a crappy design. That sounds a bit inconsistent to me and a hard sale to a jury. Bad move by Tesla.
Second, there is no chance of Tesla showing their production of Whitestar has been set back 3-6 months. This product is in development and one need only look to the Roadster to see delay after delay to know that Whitestar was nowhere near production ready. Another claim a jury will slam Tesla on.
Musk can accuse Fisker of anything he wants, but if I were Fisker, if Tesla won't back out of this...I'd counterclaim back and let the cards fall where they may.
Fisker unveiled the Karma at the Detroit Auto Show in January, and it probably took 3-4 months "to do" the car...the design was probably finalised in mid 2007 for the Karma...Fisker subsequently shopped for someone to turn the design into a car that could be shown.
If Fisker did work for Tesla...what stopped Tesla from doing exactly what Fisker did?
If Fisker did work for Tesla...what stopped Tesla from doing exactly what Fisker did?
We may never know, but I would bet that Whitestar is ready now to be unveiled, but it would look bad to do so before more Roadsters are delivered.
In that same line, it's better to announce the lawsuit now, then have it pushed off the "front page" by the delivery of production Roadsters, than the other way around. Production Roadster deliveries 'soon". Any one want to bet on what that means? I'm going for May 1st.
In that same line, it's better to announce the lawsuit now, then have it pushed off the "front page" by the delivery of production Roadsters, than the other way around. Production Roadster deliveries 'soon". Any one want to bet on what that means? I'm going for May 1st.
Kardax
Member
My thoughts exactly. For quite some time now, Tesla's PR strategy has been to allow a bunch of bad news and controversy to pile up and when all hope is lost, announce that some milestone has been reached complete with photos and a blog burst
I agree that roadster deliveries seems the most likely; they've been "in production" for a few weeks now so they could potentially have 5 or so delivered by next month. They could simultaneously announce an increase in production rate.
-Ryan
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Maybe I should have said "if it was true" for every statement I made, but I believe I made that comment quite late at night and I was just caught up it with at the moment. Sorry to have offended anyone; I think I was the only one who was "quick to jump on Fisker". I think for any kind of lawsuit you can't judge so quickly or they wouldn't have to fight the lawsuit. Looking over most of the commenters' points, I agree the lawsuit probably isn't of the best interest to the EV industry.
I don't think anyone here is offended by anyone's comments--I'm certainly not. I'm an enthusiast that is trying to buy an EV. Trouble is, I can't quite do that yet without getting screwed or placed on a waiting list. Right? Therefore, I can't promote it to other people.
I'm also trying to figure out what Tesla is thinking sometimes. I'm out there as a potentional shareholder on an IPO, but when I see stuff like this lawsuit against Fisker, I think long and hard about shareholder dollars. If I were a VC, I'd be pissed right now for a lot of reasons, Martin and Co. being a big one.
Fisker may be the bad guy, but really, I hope he's not. One more ZAP or Mr. Papp and this industry is stuck waiting for the likes of GM to resurect the EV1...
Certainly makes for interesting tea time.
I'm also trying to figure out what Tesla is thinking sometimes. I'm out there as a potentional shareholder on an IPO, but when I see stuff like this lawsuit against Fisker, I think long and hard about shareholder dollars. If I were a VC, I'd be pissed right now for a lot of reasons, Martin and Co. being a big one.
Fisker may be the bad guy, but really, I hope he's not. One more ZAP or Mr. Papp and this industry is stuck waiting for the likes of GM to resurect the EV1...
Certainly makes for interesting tea time.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
For anyone interested in timeline of Fisker:
Aug 02, 2006:
Elon gives hints of whitestar: "Without giving away too much, I can say that the second model will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster"
Tesla Motors - think
Nov 27, 2006:
GM mentions they will develop a series hybrid, "One area that GM will highlight is its effort to develop a new "series hybrid", a vehicle that would use a gas-engine to generate power only for an electric motor that would drive the car. GM has also been developing a plug-in electric hybrid vehicle under the internal code-named I-Car."
GM 'to detail fuel-saving technology' - drive.com.au
(related time events above)
May 07, 2007:
The earliest scoop on Fisker being hired by Tesla to design Whitestar.
Spies break biggest scoop so far in 2007? We spill the beans on the upcoming Tesla Electric Sedan - AutoSpies Auto News
Sept 05, 2007:
First announcement of joint venture with Quantum Technologies to be called "Fisker Automotive" and first announcement of car.
Fisker announced for the Detroit Auto Show they would cooperate with Quantum Technologies to make a "plug-in hybrid" with pretty much no other details except initial production of 15,000 vehicles and price of under $100,000.
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/images/uploads/FISKER_AUTOMOTIVE_09-05-07_1.pdf
Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Coachbuild and Quantum Technologies Team up on Luxury Plug-In Hybrid
Oct 24, 2007:
The first teaser image is released to announce that they will introduce the car at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS, AKA Detroit Auto Show) in January 2008.
2008 Detroit Show: Fisker Hybrid Teaser Image
Oct 31, 2007:
Second teaser image released.
2009 Fisker Hybrid Sports Sedan Unveiled!
Jan 14, 2008:
Fisker Karma is unveiled at the NAIAS.
Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Karma Luxury Hybrid, Only $80,000
Detroit 2008: Fisker Karma draws a crowd, impresses - Autoblog
Aug 02, 2006:
Elon gives hints of whitestar: "Without giving away too much, I can say that the second model will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster"
Tesla Motors - think
Nov 27, 2006:
GM mentions they will develop a series hybrid, "One area that GM will highlight is its effort to develop a new "series hybrid", a vehicle that would use a gas-engine to generate power only for an electric motor that would drive the car. GM has also been developing a plug-in electric hybrid vehicle under the internal code-named I-Car."
GM 'to detail fuel-saving technology' - drive.com.au
(related time events above)
May 07, 2007:
The earliest scoop on Fisker being hired by Tesla to design Whitestar.
Spies break biggest scoop so far in 2007? We spill the beans on the upcoming Tesla Electric Sedan - AutoSpies Auto News
Sept 05, 2007:
First announcement of joint venture with Quantum Technologies to be called "Fisker Automotive" and first announcement of car.
Fisker announced for the Detroit Auto Show they would cooperate with Quantum Technologies to make a "plug-in hybrid" with pretty much no other details except initial production of 15,000 vehicles and price of under $100,000.
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/images/uploads/FISKER_AUTOMOTIVE_09-05-07_1.pdf
Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Coachbuild and Quantum Technologies Team up on Luxury Plug-In Hybrid
Oct 24, 2007:
The first teaser image is released to announce that they will introduce the car at the North American International Auto Show (NAIAS, AKA Detroit Auto Show) in January 2008.
2008 Detroit Show: Fisker Hybrid Teaser Image
Oct 31, 2007:
Second teaser image released.
2009 Fisker Hybrid Sports Sedan Unveiled!
Jan 14, 2008:
Fisker Karma is unveiled at the NAIAS.
Detroit Auto Show: Fisker Karma Luxury Hybrid, Only $80,000
Detroit 2008: Fisker Karma draws a crowd, impresses - Autoblog
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Yet Another Lawsuit
Now Autobloggreen is reporting that Tesla is being sued by Magna for payment for the work they did on one of the transmissions that never worked right.
Tesla now on the receiving end of a lawsuit, Magna sues for breach of contract - AutoblogGreen
Can't we all just get along?
Now Autobloggreen is reporting that Tesla is being sued by Magna for payment for the work they did on one of the transmissions that never worked right.
Tesla now on the receiving end of a lawsuit, Magna sues for breach of contract - AutoblogGreen
Can't we all just get along?
Thanks for that stopcrazypp. The Karma is pretty good looking, sans the Cheshire Cat grill. I would really like to see a rendering of the design Fisker submitted for the Whitestar.
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As a quick general comment, hasn't Tesla been awfully quiet about these latest developments ? I seem to recall they usually had someone (usually Siry right?) doing DC pretty early ?
Cobos
Cobos
Yeah, but in the case of a lawsuit, it's best people keep their mouths shut. As others have pointed out, Elon probably already said too much to the NYT and possibly damaged their own case. Of course it's interesting for us to hear and speculate about. I myself have a vivid imagination.
Magna's suit may have some teeth... This is exactly the type of thing (lawsuits coming from the other direction as opposed to flinging them) that kills startups. Wonder where Martin falls in all this, as he's an obvious key witness that could absolutely slam Telsa if he wanted to. But I agree, this litigation needs to die and the focus needs to be back on the customers who have made down payments. Unfortunately, they seem to have been forgotten in the press releases, suits, and expansion plans.
