Yes, I think good cases can be made for utilizing the Abrams in either more defensive or more offensive roles. If these are brand new equipment, or in top condition, I'd say the offensive role gains advantage. Subterfuge has an important role to play in warfare, but at a certain point you need to lay down your cards and go into battle. I'd love to see some of these Abrams in action, pushing the Russians east. That is what they were built for really.
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
Yes, I think good cases can be made for utilizing the Abrams in either more defensive or more offensive roles. If these are brand new equipment, or in top condition, I'd say the offensive role gains advantage. Subterfuge has an important role to play in warfare, but at a certain point you need to lay down your cards and go into battle. I'd love to see some of these Abrams in action, pushing the Russians east. That is what they were built for really.
Another day of high losses for the Russians. Something is going on. Maybe the Russians are trying an offensive and it isn't going well?
personnel ‒ about 123860 (+780) persons were liquidated,
tanks ‒ 3175 (+14),
APV ‒ 6334 (+27),
artillery systems – 2169 (+15),
MLRS – 452 (+2),
Anti-aircraft warfare systems ‒ 220 (+0) ,
aircraft – 292 (+2),
helicopters – 282 (+1),
UAV operational-tactical level – 1908 (+6),
cruise missiles ‒ 749 (+0),
warships / boats ‒ 18 (+0),
vehicles and fuel tanks – 4986 (+19),
special equipment ‒ 195 (+1).
https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2023...osses-of-the-enemy-from-24-02-22-to-26-01-23/
More aircraft shots down today and high losses in Russian combat vehicles.
personnel ‒ about 123860 (+780) persons were liquidated,
tanks ‒ 3175 (+14),
APV ‒ 6334 (+27),
artillery systems – 2169 (+15),
MLRS – 452 (+2),
Anti-aircraft warfare systems ‒ 220 (+0) ,
aircraft – 292 (+2),
helicopters – 282 (+1),
UAV operational-tactical level – 1908 (+6),
cruise missiles ‒ 749 (+0),
warships / boats ‒ 18 (+0),
vehicles and fuel tanks – 4986 (+19),
special equipment ‒ 195 (+1).
https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2023...osses-of-the-enemy-from-24-02-22-to-26-01-23/
More aircraft shots down today and high losses in Russian combat vehicles.
If that is another Alligator heli than the losses are looking high there as well.
These were old versions from the 1980s that were left sitting completely stationary on a hilltop with no protection whatsoever. Sitting ducks. Incompetent use of a tank at its worst. Perhaps you could give us a comparable situation faced by Challengers and Abrams?
The US has tons of Abrams sitting in storage, yet we are supposed to believe that it will take many months to deliver any to Ukraine? It's hard to believe that the US isn't acting completely dishonestly here.
It does take time to rehab a tank after it's taken out of storage. Plus the tank crews and maintenance crews need to be trained. The peacetime training course for an Abrams mechanic is over a year long. It can be shortened due to the war emergency, but it still takes time to train the mechanics. The heavy maintenance can probably be taken care of at depots in Poland, but there are tons of daily maintenance that needs to be performed in the field.
I've seen estimates that the field mechanics training might be condensed down to about 5 months.
I agree something is up on the abrams, they are not even supplying out of old inventory. The procurement process is different than for everything else so yes something is up on the Abrams. Yes also that it took the USA supplying tanks to get Germany to drop strident resistance. Also the whole thing about it being a turbine and complex is bunk- the turbine can be pulled and replaced in a shocking short amount of time, much faster than for a diesel. Ukraine has aircraft mechanics that will understand helicopter turbines, that is all it is. So yes , something is up.
The leopard tanks being supplied to Ukraine are often the same series as that used by Turkey, 2a4. The original Abrams would have the same issues I suspect.
Yes the Turks had poor tactics but lost some others in unacceptable ways - old anti tank missles hits from side. 10 destroyed by an ISIS relying on captured weapons.
Just for the thread here to not be surprised if leopard losses mount as many are older versions without upgraded armor.
The decision on the abrams turbine is interesting, why a turbine vs a diesel.
Good on the UK to kick this off with the challengers, a very good tank and I believe all up armored.
The leopard tanks being supplied to Ukraine are often the same series as that used by Turkey, 2a4. The original Abrams would have the same issues I suspect.
Yes the Turks had poor tactics but lost some others in unacceptable ways - old anti tank missles hits from side. 10 destroyed by an ISIS relying on captured weapons.
Just for the thread here to not be surprised if leopard losses mount as many are older versions without upgraded armor.
The decision on the abrams turbine is interesting, why a turbine vs a diesel.
Good on the UK to kick this off with the challengers, a very good tank and I believe all up armored.
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Putie continues to double down w. inflamatory rhetoric against the West, and pyrrhic attacks on defenseless civilians in the East. Meanwhile, his armed forces burn and wither in the fields, until some Russian actor finally snuffs him and ends the war with a cease fire, a withdrawal of remaining Russian forces, and sues for peace. IMO.
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Then take tanks from active duty, just as others do.
The Leopard 2 A6 that Ukraine gets from Germany is a very modern, sophisticated tank, which is only now getting slowly replaced by the Leopard 2 A7. Why do you believe that it requires less training than the Abrams?
petit_bateau
Active Member
It is amazing what you can get out of a bag of spare parts these days ... presumably complete with the HARMs looms
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I've had push lawn mowers louder than that. For a tank that size revving to get out of mud it's very quite.
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Engine operation and maintenance alone will double the training time for crews who previously have worked only with diesel powerpacks. Turbines are not similar at all, and do not react well to ham handed operators.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I don't think it matters that much that it takes a long time for delivery, everyone knows supplying the Abrams was just a way to get through Germany's excuses to stall on the Leopard 2s. It's fairly obvious the Leopard 2s will be the main players in whatever Ukraine will do in the near term, as they are pretty much ready to deliver.
According to this thread on Reddit, it takes 8-10 months to refurbish an Abrams from storage and have it ready for delivery to a customer:
So yes, you are supposed to believe it will take many months to take them out of storage (because that's how long it actually typically takes).
From what I've been reading it sounds like the US is planning to send over the M1A2 variant. Possibly stripped of certain features that they don't want the Russians getting an opportunity to take a good look at. It appears they want the tanks to serve a purpose more than symbolic.
It is not as loud as a decent pro chainsaw. Also not all DB readings are the same . The abrams are noisy, but if you grew up around Detroit diesels you would be shocked at how little noise there is.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
All the reports so far say M1A1, but it may just be ignorant reporters, I guess we'll see what configuration is ultimately delivered.
BitJam
Active Member
M1 Abrams Tanks In U.S. Inventory Have Armor Too Secret To Send To Ukraine
M1 tanks will be heading to Ukraine, but they can't just be pulled from U.S. stocks due to their sensitive armor.
www.thedrive.com
The Story Behind the Fraught Decision to Send All Those Tanks to Ukraine
Germany has the tanks that Ukraine really needs, but it wouldn’t send them alone.
[...] and those [Abrams tanks] will arrive not in weeks, but in several months, and possibly not for another year.
This is because the tanks will be ordered from the General Dynamics factory, which will have to build them from scratch, and will not be drawn from America’s existing stockpile, though the U.S. Army has about 4,400 Abrams tanks, many of them already in Europe.
Yes the depleted uranium armor in the M1A2 is not permitted for export due to concerns about countermeasures I would assume.
Canada is joining the party and sending Ukraine 4 of their Leopard2 tanks, as well as training troops!
Canada is joining the party and sending Ukraine 4 of their Leopard2 tanks, as well as training troops!
