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My worry is that demand for hydrogen will be too high for green hydrogen to supply and we'll be stuck with lots of gray hydrogen for a long time to come. We need alot of hydrogen already for non-energy uses, ammonia, steel, petrochemical of all sorts. I am actually opposed to using hydrogen in ground transportation because it will require decades to build up a big enough electrolyzer fleet to supply displace all the hydrogen now produced from gas and coal.

Additionally, I view the round trip efficiency of hydrogen as a red herring. As long as there is not enough hydrogen to eliminate gray hydrogen, it is perfectly fine to source natural gas to backup power grids. That is, what is the logic of generating hydrogen from so that you can use hydrogen to backup the grid? The only rationale I know of is so called blue hydrogen, which is gray hydrogen plus CCS to limit emissions. So in theory if you use blur hydrogen to generate power that is comparable to using natural gas plus CCS to generate power. CCS, of course, will always be an incremental cost and energy waste when added to either a hydrogen or power generation plant. So I'm very skeptical that the economics will ever workout well for CCS.

So my outlook is that even if all the power grids of the world were to generate enough hydrogen to do seasonal grid balancing, the globe would still need places like Australia and the Middle East to export green hydrogen, and that still would not be enough to eliminate gray hydrogen. I am not opposed to using massive battery and hydro storage to balance a grid. I am optimistic that battery costs can continue to decline quite a bit. I am also optimistic that the cost of electrolyzers can decline quite a bit as well. It just turns out that when an electrolyzer is optimized for maximum return, it draws power only when it is marginally profitable to do so. This is important to keep in mind when building out an agent based model. When the power price goes above the marginal breakeven, typically between $20 and $30 per MWh, generation shuts off. Battery storage is unlikely to discharge until the price exceeds a higher threshold. So microeconomics of electrolyzers is that they compete with batteries for cheap power to charge on and do not create demand for the discharge from batteries. This microeconomic interplay means that electrlyzers will undermine the fragile economics of low frequency storage. When you do your agent-based modeling, I think you'll see this play out.

Another thing you may find is that the as a grid is dominated by zero-marginal generation with sufficient storage, you no longer have fuel-based generation setting or dominating the price for generation. So if generation is only weakly determining the market price for power, what is? I believe marginal industrial-scale consumers like electrolyzers will be really key in determining and stabilizing the wholesale price of power. Batteries a great as market makers as they switch from charge to discharge to take advantage of price volatility, but they are not so good when there is a surplus of RE generation. In your charts there are many hours where SoC is near 100%. Near 100%, batteries will find very little price spread to trade on. If you were modeling power prices, you'd find that the price of power is nearly zero. This means that your batteries and all generation capacity are producing almost no economic value at all when the market is oversupplied and SoC is nearly at 100%. But if you've got even a small electrolyer fleet, they can feast off of these low power prices. Indeed suppose the marginal breakeven price for electrolyzers is $30/MWh, then they are when RE is in surplus to what even the batteries need to charge on, they are enjoying a surplus profit of nearly $30/MWh just to be running. This bigger this surplus profit is over the course of the year, the more eagerly investors will add capacity to the fleet. Basic microeconomics anticipates that the electrlyzer fleet will grow, bidding up the price of cheap power, until some equilibrium is reached. At this equilibrium, electrlyzers set the prices at which batteries charge. The spread from the average discharge price for batteries to average charge price will determine the economic value of battery capacity. If the battery fleet is too small, this average spread will be high, and investors will add more capacity. Thus, the battery fleet grows to some equilibrium. If you do agent-based modeling, on the choice to added more battery or more electrolyzer capacity to the market, you'll see this dynamic play out.

There is a market equilibrium between electrolyzer and battery capacity such that it is unprofitable to add one more unit of either to the market. At this point, if marginal wind or solar have low enough LCOE below the marginally profitable power price for electrlyzers, then that unit of wind or solar will find adequate demand. So basically, wind and solar can be added to grid based solely on marginal demand for green hydrogen. Indeed, the marginal breakeven for electrolyzers is proportional to the price of green hydrogen. Green hydrogen is competing with gray hydrogen, which derives its breakeven price from natural gas. This pits grids against natural gas as suppliers to the hydrogen market. This is a long way around from the current situation where grids are strictly consumers of natural gas.

The way I see deep decarbonization working with market economics is for the grids of the world to transition from being consumers of natural gas to being producers of green hydrogen. There is a interim phase grids are seasonal consumers of natural gas and seasonal producers of green hydrogen. At some point, a grid displaces as much natural gas via green hydrogen as it consumes for back up power. At this point, the grid is a net zero consumer of gas and quite close to net zero carbon emissions. Note also that it is not necessary for the grid to generate any power from hydrogen to get to this point so long as there is sufficient global demand for hydrogen. But getting to net zero carbon in the grid is not going nearly far enough.

Deep decarbonization requires that no fossil fuels can be used in a manner that emits carbon dioxide. So grids can be net zero, but we still have a huge amount of fossil fuels used for heat energy. We'll certainly want to lean on net zero electricity as much as possible for heat, but there are still going to be some hard to decarbonize uses for natural gas outside the grid. Green hydrogen can still have enormous demand growth well past the point grids reach net zero. In the past I've tried to estimate how much the global grids must grow just to satisfy the current demand for gas, excluding the portion used for power generation. My crude math indicates the globe needs 3X or more power generation to quit natural gas. At 1.5X, electrolyzers would largely become net zero. So at 3X, electrolyzers are consuming about 2/3 of all power generated. This is why I don't worrying about decarbonizing the grid as much as I used to. Instead, I worry about how do we get off of natural gas.

The scale of RE that is required for this is truly mind blowing. Current global power genation is about average 3TW. To triple this we are looking at close to 36TW of solar and wind capacity along with about 24TW of electrolyzer capacity. The natural reaction many have to this is that the scale is ridiculously large. But I'd humbly submit that one does not have a firm grasp of just how much gas it takes to run our global economy. Even that chart on UK gas and UK electricity showed that gas demand was about 3X that of electricity. So even tripling tripling the grid on quenches gas consumption if the alternative are 1/3 more efficient on average. So the prospect that the UK may need 3X power generation to achieve deep decarbonization should not be shocking to anyone. Now maybe the UK can't scale up to that with domestic RE resources. That's why massive power lines to Morroco and Norway are necessary and economical. Also this is why MENA and Australia can become global exporters of green hydrogen. As Europe and Asia are currently tapping LNG imports to balance their energy needs, we should probably expect that some day green hydrogen or some more easily transported derivative of it will be exported to regions that are running a deficit on renewable energy. Yep, hydrogen might have a low round-trip efficiency, but that matters little when you've got to import massive amounts of backup energy. LNG is certainly not the most energy efficient way to get natural gas, but this inefficiency matters little when there are regional energy shortages.

At any rate, that's my outlook. Cheers!
You're aware of the "hydrogen ladder" concept, right? If I'm not misinterpreting, it could be a useful shorthand for the above.


Seems like a good approach and good presentation, but I haven’t analyzed it in detail. Worth reading the whole thread, as well as the more exhaustive article.

 
You're aware of the "hydrogen ladder" concept, right? If I'm not misinterpreting, it could be a useful shorthand for the above.
Thanks! I have not seen this before, but it is helpful. Liebreich has become an advocate of blue hydrogen because he cannot imagine electrolyzers scaling up to the GW scale. I've debated this point with him on Twitter. We both agree that it is best not to have hydrogen demand ascend much beyond unavoidable uses.

BTW the way in the above, I meant to suggest 12GW of electrolyzers, not 24GW. The difference depends on capacity factor. Regardless, I don't see how to solve deep decarbonization of natural gas without hitting the GW scale.
 

Wow, the Japan Korea Marker price for LNG hits $56.326/mmBtu!

Keep in mind a fleet of gas generators with 42% will burn about $458 of LNG at this price to produce 1 MWh. Compare that to LCOE generally around $50/MWh for wind or solar plus a little battery storage. If these high prices are going to last until winter hits, WSB can turn a tidy profit. I can't see why WSB developers wouldn't be running all out to install these assets. Even at the minimum price of $5.80/mmBtu, LNG has a fuel cost of $47/MWh on power generation. The fossil fuel industry can complain all they want about RE, but they can't beat them on price. It's better to overbuild on wind and solar, than to pay over $20/mmBtu to backstop seasonal-regional energy shortages.
 
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I'd like to see Tesla invest in this sort of ship. Gets 10 knots, so slower than conventional ship at 17 knots. I think Tesla could make it work better. Add battery and motor. Use fleet of EV batteries onboard to add power to the ship. Cover deck with PV cells. I wonder if these modifications could boost the speed by a knot or two.

Regardless, Tesla needs to support wind-powered shipping because it is essential to the mission.
 
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Meh. That's been the plan for as long as this 2030 initiative has been announced. Execution thus far has been.....not so great.

$10-20B was poured into the financial hub......no one would relocate there.
Neom was a $500B city MBS planned to link Jordan and Egypt. Pretty sure that hasn't gone anywhere.
The clock is ticking so loud it's deafening......and they're still just talking.

All the banks and private equity are gonna turn this guy out once they know for sure there's less total revenue in loaning him money than there is just taking what he has left. Unclear when that is, but it's not far off.
 
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Ambani want to make a gigafactory in India to produce Stiesdal's electrolyzer cheap at scale. The company thinks they can get the prices down to $231/kW.

My thoughts...

This would bring the capex down to the point that a low capacity factor is no problem financially. For example, the financing on $231/kW at 6% over 15 years, is about $24/kW/year. It takes about 48 hours to produce 1kg of hydrogen, so at 100% CF this is capex cost of $0.13/kg H2. So at 50%CF, the capex is a modest $0.26/kg. The breakeven $/MWh for electrolysis is about 3.41 mmBtu/MWh x price for gas $/mmBtu. So at around $9/mmBtu for imported LNG, the electrolyzer runs optimally whenever the price of power is under $31/MWh. If the average price of power below this threshold is, say, $20/MWh, then the average energy cost to produce 1 kg is $0.96. This leads to a levelized cost of $1.22/kg, plus some installation cost. Both electrolyzers and SMR (gray hydrogen) will encounter comparable costs for compressing, storage and distribution.

In light of the current difficulties in the LNG market, it is important to consider that the cost of gas in an LNG import country can be quite variable. Over the last 12 months Europe and Asia have encountered NG prices over $10/mmBtu for about half the year.

1) This impacts the marginal breakeven price between gray and green hydrogen. At $10/mmBtu for NG, the electrolyzer wins whenever power is below $34.1/MWh. At $20/mmBtu, the electrolyzer only needs to source power below $78.2/MWh. Both green and gray hydrogen are competing with stored and imported hydrogen prices. The implication is that when gas become expensive as it is now, gray hydrogen production can become marginally unprofitable too.

2) If the hydrogen market were truly competitive and liquid, SMR gray would not optimally operate at full 100% CF either. Indeed, we are presently seeing that European ammonia producers must idle production right now because NG is too expensive. It's okay that an electrolyzer might only operate half the year because in a market where green and gray are competing head-to-head SMR might only be profitable for a fraction of the year too. If there is plenty of switching capacity between green and gray, then building up RE generation resources can also help the gas markets weather seasonality and other periods of high NG prices. Indeed, it becomes very helpful if the grid depends only mildly on gas generated power.

3) A final implication here is that the combination of wind, solar, and batteries are able to deliver a low combined LCOE, this puts pressure on the price of imported LNG. And we could see this combined LCOE decline 10% to 20% per year for many more years, especially as batteries become more available and decline in price. So eventually we could see WSB get down to $20.5/MWh. The this point green hydrogen will be profitable whenever LNG is at or above $6/mmBtu, which is the lowest price seen in the last 12 months. Of course, to compete with WSB this cheap on baseload, gas generators need LNG to be $2.50/mmBtu. WSB competes with gas in the power market above $2.50/mmBtu and in the hydrogen market above $6/mmBtu. The implication of these two price points is that LNG is first driven out of the power markets before it is driven out of the domestic hydrogen market. But in both markets, the relentless cost decline of WSB power makes LNG increasingly uncompetitive. As WSB becomes more competitive, LNG becomes relegated to being more of a backup fuel, not a base load fuel.
 
Carbon emissions ‘will drop just 40% by 2050 with countries’ current pledges’

The warning comes as the UK and Europe wrestle with sky-high gas prices that threaten to increase winter costs for consumers, shut down factories and disrupt under-pressure supply chains for food and retail. The crisis has highlighted the danger of relying on fossil fuels subject to price volatility, but also the fact the region still relies heavily on gas, with renewables as yet unable to meet energy needs.
The IEA said the price crunch had given “advance warning” of the risk of moving too slowly towards renewables. Birol condemned as “inaccurate and misleading” recent claims that the energy price crisis had been partly caused by efforts to make the transition. “We will see that in a clean energy world, the shocks coming from doubling of oil and gas prices will be much less felt by consumers,” he said.
 
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Here's a little something that suggests that European power generation is becoming less dependent on fossil gas. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming months. The energy shortage in Europe appears to be more of a supply problem than demand problem.

Crude demand has peaked, and investors/banks turned away from financing exploration around 2018. If methane supply is primarily a function of oil exploration, why wouldn't we have a massive shortage right now?

Funny that 5 minutes before the pandemic we were giving away methane from the Permian.

It's gonna be like this all the way to the end, massive swings in supply.
 
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Oil traders magically knew to sell yet again as markets opened Wednesday. Could it be that they're getting their hands on the EIA weekly supply report ahead of time? No need, they know full well the fundamentals of global crude supply and what the only transparent market in the world will show.

Fortunately for all involved, that only seems to matter on Wednesdays! I guess there's an autopilot weekly trade to be setup here.

Edit: Oh yeah.....supplies are up this week, again.
 
Carbon emissions ‘will drop just 40% by 2050 with countries’ current pledges’

The warning comes as the UK and Europe wrestle with sky-high gas prices that threaten to increase winter costs for consumers, shut down factories and disrupt under-pressure supply chains for food and retail. The crisis has highlighted the danger of relying on fossil fuels subject to price volatility, but also the fact the region still relies heavily on gas, with renewables as yet unable to meet energy needs.
The IEA said the price crunch had given “advance warning” of the risk of moving too slowly towards renewables. Birol condemned as “inaccurate and misleading” recent claims that the energy price crisis had been partly caused by efforts to make the transition. “We will see that in a clean energy world, the shocks coming from doubling of oil and gas prices will be much less felt by consumers,” he said.
I've been critical of Birol is the past, but much credit is due him for speaking clearly this way. The risk is that we move too slowly to renewables and must endure avoidable years of extreme volatility in fossil markets. More renewables and more storage more quickly is the answer.

I think it would be good for the IEA and others to challenge the idea a bridge fuel. The argument is becoming clearer. Volatility and occasional shortages in fossil fuel are an expect part of the transition to renewables. To minimize this volatility at lowest investments levels, we need a diverse portfolio of fossil fuels as we transition away from all fossil fuels. The idea that we can lean exclusively on a singe fossil fuel, NG, to as a bridge fuel is fraught with even higher volatility and greater risk of occasional shortage. It also requires massive investment in infrastructure not yet in existence, specifically LNG infrastructure.

The solution, I believe, is to press very hard to ramp up solar, wind, batteries, electrolyzers, transmission grids and other clean energy tech and make rapid progress toward reducing total fossil fuel consumption. The fossil fuels can compete amongst themselves for a share of shrinking total market for fossil fuels. Making good use of existing assets and infrastructure is a much better economic path than investing in new fossil assets and infrastructure.
 
I've been critical of Birol is the past, but much credit is due him for speaking clearly this way. The risk is that we move too slowly to renewables and must endure avoidable years of extreme volatility in fossil markets. More renewables and more storage more quickly is the answer.

I think it would be good for the IEA and others to challenge the idea a bridge fuel. The argument is becoming clearer. Volatility and occasional shortages in fossil fuel are an expect part of the transition to renewables. To minimize this volatility at lowest investments levels, we need a diverse portfolio of fossil fuels as we transition away from all fossil fuels. The idea that we can lean exclusively on a singe fossil fuel, NG, to as a bridge fuel is fraught with even higher volatility and greater risk of occasional shortage. It also requires massive investment in infrastructure not yet in existence, specifically LNG infrastructure.

The solution, I believe, is to press very hard to ramp up solar, wind, batteries, electrolyzers, transmission grids and other clean energy tech and make rapid progress toward reducing total fossil fuel consumption. The fossil fuels can compete amongst themselves for a share of shrinking total market for fossil fuels. Making good use of existing assets and infrastructure is a much better economic path than investing in new fossil assets and infrastructure.
I read frequent reports where people blame the "energy crisis" on lack of investment in fossil fuels but ignore the obvious conclusion that we need sharp increases in renewables and infrastructure. Renewables (PV and wind) have short lead times compared to fossil and nuclear so can be ramped up quickly if there is adequate incentive.
 
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I read frequent reports where people blame the "energy crisis" on lack of investment in fossil fuels but ignore the obvious conclusion that we need sharp increases in renewables and infrastructure. Renewables (PV and wind) have short lead times compared to fossil and nuclear so can be ramped up quickly if there is adequate incentive.
Yes, Oilprice.com, for example, is very biased this way. The fossil industry is always to blame RE for everything and argue instead for more investment in fossils.

So I'm thinking the best response is simply to blame the RE industry for underinvesting! I like as you point out that most renewables (including battery storage) can deploy very quickly. A lot can be accomplished in a 6 to 18 month timeframe. So now is the time to start RE projects to prevent shortages of LNG for winter 2023.
 
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New research shows the scale of those investments. Since 2010, the private equity industry has invested at least $1.1 trillion into the energy sector — double the combined market value of three of the world’s largest energy companies, Exxon, Chevron and Royal Dutch Shell. Only about 12 percent of investment in the energy sector by private equity firms went into renewable power, like solar or wind, since 2010, though those investments have grown at a faster rate. You can read the details in my story today.
 


New research shows the scale of those investments. Since 2010, the private equity industry has invested at least $1.1 trillion into the energy sector — double the combined market value of three of the world’s largest energy companies, Exxon, Chevron and Royal Dutch Shell. Only about 12 percent of investment in the energy sector by private equity firms went into renewable power, like solar or wind, since 2010, though those investments have grown at a faster rate. You can read the details in my story today.
The sentiment of this thread has always been that oil's death will not be ultra-disruptive to the global economy, as oil & gas is only something like 3% of global GDP. I find that hard to believe.

Let's not forget the scarcity of oil/gas/coal is the entire basis of human wealth and finance. The investing world has turned it's back on coal, and maybe half of the oil & gas world. When it realizes there's no money to be made ever again......what happens?

No finance available at all, hence no revenue. Does JPMorgan even exist in a world of sustainable abundance?

This $1T disappears over the course of a few months once the Saudis and Wall Street move past this phase and into pump-until-its-gone mode. I think we dramatically underestimate the impact of this transition being done with no coordinated plan. Even with WWII level cooperation and effort, it'll still be an absolute mess.

I guess we can always point to the stimulative nature of renewable energy finance to bail us out of any dark periods. When problems hit in 2026, we don't need to bail out the banks, we just finance the technology that absorbs 10% of global energy needs. I guess that should juice things.

I don't know. Every other day I'm sure it'll be paradise or the apocalypse. But you can spend 17 straight months in paradise with no problem. 2 weeks in the apocalypse and we might end up in the dark ages.
 
Anywho.....back to oil trading. So there's a massive crude shortage, right? Well we know Saudi Aramco cut their prices in half from September for October deliveries......and no one bought any. Well apparently now they've cut prices for November by another 23.5%. Explain to me how it's possible for Brent to keep rising as the #1 pumper keeps cutting prices.