Staggering amount of issues found at/after delivery. Considering returning the car.

[MXWing]

MX, I'd like to go back to this quote if I may (thread has devolved anyway). I originally responded that I agree with this statement, but thinking back, it just doesn't sit well with me.

One simple way to avoid the adversarial process in car buying, is simply to pay sticker list. Why are you happy to do this for Tesla, but not anyone else?

Why do you appreciate that Tesla treats everyone the same, yet you value being treated differently when the vendor is different? You said yourself you are an expert negotiator.

Sure. I am to discuss any topic with you, especially one that I can sense is near and dear to you.

Paying sticker for any other auto manufacturer is financially irresponsible. It’s irresponsible because you have left money on the table and that money you gave away carries opportunity cost that could have been deployed elsewhere.

The official fundamental theorem of economics is “the study of allocation of unlimited wants and limited resources”. I personally prefer “there is no free lunch” as the pragmatic first principles but I digress.

I got $2500 or so off of invoice on my Chevy Volt. With no negotiation and going “Costco deal” I could have gotten $1000 above invoice. Why would I give up $3500 or $1000 off? Numbers are approximate and used for illustration, this was back in 2016 so I don't recall all details. Only time it makes sense is I can generate MORE than $4000 in two hours doing something alternative. Why wouldn’t I at least go for the Costco deal? Zero work but still $1500 more in my pocket than straight MSRP.

If Tesla's were open to negotiation, I could get them cheaper so I would benefit. Jay Leno pays $80,000 for a 3P- and doesn't think, bother or care. Tesla can afford to then sell the same car to me for $59,999 since they made their margins elsewhere. I used the second definition of "appreciate" which made things seem unclear. I understand the implications of "fixed price for all" even though I personally lose under that scenario.

Tesla makes twice the markup of any other OEM at the manufacturer level. Why are you happy to pay this without question, but when the dealer has his skin in the game, it's your "pound of flesh" he's after? Does he not have overhead to pay also?

I sold cars briefly in 1991, I distinctly remember several deals my manager approved where the dealer's net take was a couple hundred dollars. And that was before my commission.

Tesla makes twice the markup of any other OEM but has been straddling the line for bankruptcy over its entire existence. Tesla right now needs to make four times the markup of any other OEM but they can't because the free market will tell them to go bankrupt first...

One of my communicative flaws is I use charged terms which pisses people off and distracts from the argument I am trying to make. Rather than "pound of flesh" let's use "margin" instead. Yes they have to make their margin. Whether Tesla makes $60,000 in margin selling 10 cars same price, collecting $6,000 each or GM makes $60,000 making $10,000 off me, $2,000 off you, etc doesn't really matter. A dollar is generally fungible. if GM can't make enough off the car, they will try to make it in financing... make it in extended warranties, nvas (NONE value added services). Playing this kind of dance is frustrating and people would rather not deal with it.

The big picture, while I can cry for a dealer that only made a couple hundred bucks at sale.. I will be raging against when the car I want is sold ABOVE sticker. (Market adjustment - do I want it or not?) I'll also not be happy when I have to negotiate for service once my warranty expires. It's an endless game of negotiation under traditional auto. Those who don't do it, live in bliss.

I sell auto parts for a living. Not a single day goes by where someone doesn't ask me some variation on the phrase, "Is that the best you can do?" Yes, I have bills to pay and 45 people to distribute wages to. It drives me mad that I'm not allowed to make a living. We cave anyway, because competition is fierce. So I guess it's our fault.

I'll reach out to you Matt. Depending where you source, I'll see if there is an opportunity to potentially lower your COGS with my contacts.
Being a consumer and being a supplier, I can appreciate/understand both sides. Retailer doesn't want to pay you.. they want terms.. you have to front goods to them.. if they go bankrupt or find a way to reject deliveries.. you are up *sugar* creek - I get it. So you go pressure your OEM to lower their prices. Your OEM pressures the source of their inputs, etc. Being a consumer is the easiest job and they wield the most power.

But people who complain about the dealer process, need to recognize they share some of the blame. That's how we got here, because everyone feels they're entitled to demand a better deal. Imagine buying a garage door at Lowe's and then demanding a price cut at checkout. You wouldn't do it, would you? Why not? Why is it okay to do with cars?

People would not arbitrage if arbitrage opportunities did not exist. If GM stuck to their guns and sold the same car for the same price at every dealer than all consumers would be on equal footing. Unless after net-net they choose a F150 over a Silverado because Ford was willing to give them a better deal than GM did.

Saturn tried this and failed because their products were not compelling enough. Tesla is. They are a disruptor - to all our benefit.

I don't have to negotiate at Lowes because they already giving me the best price they can. The same chamberlain has a perfect substitute at Home Depot or Amazon.

With cars, I'm not getting the best price possible when its MSRP.. or even above MSRP.

Lastly, I don't see this happening at Tesla where every store is corporate owned.

A VP at the Largest Porsche Dealer in America Just Vanished with $2.5 Million in Buyer Deposits

Edit: I remember now my Volt salesman said I could have the very first Bolt in California. $500 deposit, sticker price, no negotiation (He wanted to get me after selling two Volts to me), I could have it. I got private offers inside of a year that would have resulted in that Bolt being over $5,000 off sticker. That's the bull *sugar* of traditional auto. Nice guy as far as car salesmen go but I don't buy it when the said they "lose money" off me. They wouldn't sell me a car if they lost money. Information is asymmetric. Tesla's way is best.

You can buy a Tesla today and one hour after you, the next person did not pay less than you. If there was one thing that makes me salty is my "free" black paint is still free damnit while everything else went up. I need a rebate or a signed topless photo of Elon Musk as compensation for my losses.

 

[mattjs33]

Paying sticker for any other auto manufacturer is financially irresponsible.

Yet you did it. And said how wonderful it was.

If Tesla's were open to negotiation...

They are not. But you respect them for not being so?

I understand the implications of "fixed price for all" even though I personally lose under that scenario.

And still you prefer the Tesla strategy. I'm confused, there's a lot of contradictory thoughts within your response.

Tesla has a compelling product, that you wanted, and told you this is the price, take it or lump it. You took it, with a smile on your face and a "Thank you". How is that any different than a dealer charging MSRP, or adding Market Adjustment - do you want it or not?

With cars, I'm not getting the best price possible when its MSRP.. or even above MSRP.

What you're telling me here is that you're okay with this, as long as it's Tesla. That's willingness to pay Market Adjustment if I ever heard it. If you really wanted the car and are okay with the price you paid, then it doesn't matter. But it sounds to me an awful lot like talking out both sides of your mouth. I dunno, it just strikes me funny.

Tesla makes twice the markup of any other OEM but has been straddling the line for bankruptcy over its entire existence. Tesla right now needs to make four times the markup of any other OEM but they can't because the free market will tell them to go bankrupt first...

This certainly makes Tesla the most compelling automotive story of our lifetime, don't you think? The clock is ticking... It's why I still check in here every so often.

I'll also not be happy when I have to negotiate for service once my warranty expires.

Just guessing, but you'll likely have to do that when your Model X warranty expires also. Unless you sell it first. ;-)

I'll reach out to you Matt. Depending where you source, I'll see if there is an opportunity to potentially lower your COGS with my contacts.

I appreciate the offer, but since we are a NAPA store, that's not going to be possible. What I didn't make clear intially is that we sit at the retail level, which means we have no power at all!

People would not arbitrage if arbitrage opportunities did not exist. If GM stuck to their guns and sold the same car for the same price at every dealer than all consumers would be on equal footing. Unless after net-net they choose a F150 over a Silverado because Ford was willing to give them a better deal than GM did.

This is what happens in competitive markets, something that Tesla is likely to find out the hard way. They've had the playground to themselves for quite a while now, but the Big Kids are on the way.

Saturn tried this and failed because their products were not compelling enough.

Saturn failed for lots of reasons, one of which was a lack of compelling products (especially towards the end). GM is to blame for that. But Saturn had a nearly Tesla-like cult following, and one of the biggest things their customers raved about was the no-hassle pricing. The mainstream industry will never go to it fully, I'm afraid, because there is not that kind of solidarity among its members. So we're stuck with what we have,

Thank you for your thorough reply.

 

[MXWing]

Yet you did it. And said how wonderful it was.

Do I have an OPTION of not paying sticker at Tesla? I don't so it is what it is. If I had a shot at negotiating with Tesla, I would take it.

I did not gain, I did not lose over consumer B.
What is best for me is not always correlated with what is best for society.

And still you prefer the Tesla strategy. I'm confused, there's a lot of contradictory thoughts within your response.

Tesla has a compelling product, that you wanted, and told you this is the price, take it or lump it. You took it, with a smile on your face and a "Thank you". How is that any different than a dealer charging MSRP, or adding Market Adjustment - do you want it or not?

Same as above. On the micro level I lose, but on the macro level the "class" wins. Tesla sells MSRP and does market adjustments as well as they have done with paint, dual motor but there is a main distinction - those adjustments are done to all, fair for all. Honda S2000 was thousands above MSRP in California. It was just MSRP in Arizona. It's a lot of friction for me to get that Arizona price.

This certainly makes Tesla the most compelling automotive story of our lifetime, don't you think? The clock is ticking... It's why I still check in here every so often.

So you do not own a Tesla, nor intend to get one? Not that it matters for our conversation but its helpful for me to understand someone else perspective. I suppose driving a Tesla into Napa, a car that Napa can't profit off of would be politically untenable. Some trivia: I have a good buddy who works at a Toyota. Politically, you can bring in any other auto into the employee parking lot. Except Tesla. Toyota employees with Tesla's hide that they own one and don't bring them to any events, even offsite ones. Also, most of the 'disagrees' I get actually come from people who don't own Tesla's or have experience with EAP.

Just guessing, but you'll likely have to do that when your Model X warranty expires also. Unless you sell it first. ;-)

Even Economists make irrational emotional decisions. That Model X has free unlimited supercharging that stays with the car. It's going into the trust for generational hand me downs. While money is fungible, I believe Tesla when they say they don't intend to make money off of service. I am happy for them to make money with software and value added services. I will see how it goes when the time comes. I am open to changing my mind in light of new information or experiences.

I appreciate the offer, but since we are a NAPA store, that's not going to be possible. What I didn't make clear intially is that we sit at the retail level, which means we have no power at all!

Interesting.. so without know anything. I am going to assume Napa is franchised, your COGS are non negotiable from Napa? Napa though I am sure beats up their suppliers.

This is what happens in competitive markets, something that Tesla is likely to find out the hard way. They've had the playground to themselves for quite a while now, but the Big Kids are on the way.

Tesla has unassailable moats in my opinion. Frictionless, nation wide, high speed charging network. They are nearing total vertically integrated supply chain. They are the largest manufacturer in the world for the most vital component of BEV's, the battery themselves. It's not even a Chevy Bolt.. by composition it's an LG Chem Bolt.

How is GM going to seriously win the EV war when they are losing $9,000 per Bolt and would rather sell you a Corvette instead?

Tesla's bottom line is abysmal, but their top line is the biggest automotive story of our lifetime. Big kids are on the way but they are DOA for the informed consumer. The top line and bottom line will intersect. I hope as early as 2 weeks from now.

Frictionless high speed, nation wide charging network? Nope
Best dollar for KW ratio? Nope
Best autonomy prospects? Nope
Sustainable production? Nope iPace will sell EVERY car it makes. 2,500 iPaces is not a whole lot to sell. 250,000 Model 3s is two more zeros of magnitude.

Saturn failed for lots of reasons, one of which was a lack of compelling products (especially towards the end). GM is to blame for that. But Saturn had a nearly Tesla-like cult following, and one of the biggest things their customers raved about was the no-hassle pricing. The mainstream industry will never go to it fully, I'm afraid, because there is not that kind of solidarity among its members. So we're stuck with what we have,

Thank you for your thorough reply.

My auto experience pre-EV is not as extensive as yours so I will defer to you on why Saturn failed and why the members cannot play well. We'll never see how well a Ford or GM can do in a direct to consumer model as the dealership model is completely entrenched. We needed something like a Tesla that can just build everything from the ground up. Let's see how history goes.

You are welcome and thank you for your thoughts.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I sell auto parts for a living. Not a single day goes by where someone doesn't ask me some variation on the phrase, "Is that the best you can do?" Yes, I have bills to pay and 45 people to distribute wages to. It drives me mad that I'm not allowed to make a living. We cave anyway, because competition is fierce. So I guess it's our fault.

That is me every time I get anything auto-related sorry. I think it's been ingrained in my mind that dealers/auto service companies mark up their prices because they expect to be haggled down. Its like shopping for a mattress - you should never ever pay sticker since markups are crazy (I always aim for half of sticker for mattresses). I guess times have changed.

I remember when my parents bought Saturns back in the 90s and part of the deal with Saturn was no haggling - the price was the price.

I think it's all the stories people hear of the auto buyers who got a great deal (eg "I was offered free supercharging if I took delivery by Sept") which makes us all want to get a deal.

 

[mattjs33]

So you do not own a Tesla, nor intend to get one? Not that it matters for our conversation but its helpful for me to understand someone else perspective. I suppose driving a Tesla into Napa, a car that Napa can't profit off of would be politically untenable.

No, I don't own a Tesla, nor will I possibly be able to afford one anytime soon. I am merely a student of the industry as cars are effectively my life, and since I like the exotic and weird, it led me here back in 2010. Back then it was still just the Roadster, of course.

The Tesla story fascinates me, and while both the fawning over Musk, and the people who believe that building Teslas is somehow altogether different than building other cars, drive me insane, I still come back here now and again to keep tabs on how things are going. Since I have an outsider's view of Tesla, and an insider's view of the industry, my opinions are quite often not popular, despite how true they might ring.

I have seen several Model 3's in person despite being lodged firmly in middle America, and while I think they look sharp on the outside, I can't get past that "F it, let's just glue an iPad to the dash" interior. I understand why it's done that way however.

Interesting.. so without know anything. I am going to assume Napa is franchised, your COGS are non negotiable from Napa? Napa though I am sure beats up their suppliers.

They do, quite a bit. NAPA however is an association, not a franchise. We have some rules to follow by agreement but we are free to sell what we want how we want. It's our biggest strength and our biggest curse relative to our competition, because owner commitment and strategy can vary widely.

I suppose driving a Tesla into Napa, a car that Napa can't profit off of would be politically untenable.

We have actually sold wiper blades to a Model S customer off the street. I can sell Model S rear brake pads also, they are the same as on a Hyundai Genesis. ;-)

We needed something like a Tesla that can just build everything from the ground up. Let's see how history goes.

It'll be a ride, one way or the other.

 

[MXWing]

Its like shopping for a mattress - you should never ever pay sticker since markups are crazy (I always aim for half of sticker for mattresses). I guess times have changed.

Oh man.. reminds me how fubar mattress shopping is.

They get you by "beating prices on the same mattress". There is no "same" mattress. Sealy or whatever sells the same mattress to 4 retailers but its a different model number so price beating across retailers is not possible. LOL

 

[Canuck]

Subaru's customer satisfaction ranks 7th out of 40-some brands??? OMG that's AWFUL.

We have a different mindset. You look at that rating from the bottom up. I look from the top down. From the top, down 7 notches is a very long way. Plus, how can you ignore the fact that someone buying a Subaru has a nearly 25% chance of never buying a Subaru again, according to a random sampling of their owners? You say that's good? And they are a good example to use against Tesla to prove your point?

I stand by my point.

That's unfortunate since it means the facts don't matter to you even though you first seemed to have an open mind when you asked:

And I don't recall hearing any such growing pains from Subaru customers. In fact I believe Subaru owners are some of the most satisfied (feel free to confirm).

Not only are they not "some of the most satisfied" they don't even rank in the top 5.

On the bright side, they beat out industry stalwarts such as Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda and Toyota.

We're talking about Tesla! You don't give up. But using those other brands as Subaru beating them out means you probably never owned any of them either vs. a Tesla since there's no comparison there either.

(feel free to confirm).

Funny how you don't say "Feel free to challenge". That's what I like to say and if someone proves me wrong, I admit it. It makes you a bigger man, not smaller, as you seem to assume. Plus you look foolish being proved wrong but still...

I stand by my point.

Okay, Subaru customers are "some of the most satisfied"... and a good example to use against Tesla...

Time for the ignore button. Can't waste my time on closed minds.

 

[mattjs33]

We have a different mindset. You look at that rating from the bottom up. I look from the top down. From the top, down 7 notches is a very long way. Plus, how can you ignore the fact that someone buying a Subaru has a nearly 25% chance of never buying a Subaru again, according to a random sampling of their owners? You say that's good? And they are a good example to use against Tesla to prove your point?

That's unfortunate since it means the facts don't matter to you even though you first seemed to have an open mind when you asked:

Not only are they not "some of the most satisfied" they don't even rank in the top 5.

We're talking about Tesla! You don't give up. But using those other brands as Subaru beating them out means you probably never owned any of them either vs. a Tesla since there's no comparison there either.

Funny how you don't say "Feel free to challenge". That's what I like to say and if someone proves me wrong, I admit it. It makes you a bigger man, not smaller, as you seem to assume. Plus you look foolish being proved wrong but still...

Okay, Subaru customers are "some of the most satisfied"

Lighten up Canuck. "Bigger man", "foolish", "you don't give up". I'm not going to war with you.

As a matter of fact Yes I would say that being in the top fifth of all players qualifies as being "good at" customer satisfaction. There are plenty of OEMs who might like to do as well, wouldn't you say? When I asked for confirmation it was because I was being too lazy to download the actual numbers, but you did it for me and proved my point. Subaru ranks highly in customer service, and has for quite some time, despite massive growth. I honestly don't give a sh*t where they fall relative to Tesla or whether Tesla tops the list or how you want to dissect my comment. It was made to convey a point, which is ramping up doesn't need to be hard, when there are folks who know what they're doing.

Tesla's delivery model is unsustainable at their volume targets, as Tesla currently sits. This thread proves there are massive problems for a large enough group of people that such rumblings are gaining traction industry-wide. That's not good for Tesla's image to its potential customers. It needs to be addressed quickly, and with Tesla's draining cash resources, that's going to be a major hurdle.

Tesla is building cars faster than they can get them delivered. They're going to have to invest in a LOT more delivery centers and delivery people. Or they'd better start building some big parking lots.

 

[MXWing]

No, I don't own a Tesla, nor will I possibly be able to afford one anytime soon. I am merely a student of the industry as cars are effectively my life, and since I like the exotic and weird, it led me here back in 2010. Back then it was still just the Roadster, of course.

The Tesla story fascinates me, and while both the fawning over Musk, and the people who believe that building Teslas is somehow altogether different than building other cars, drive me insane, I still come back here now and again to keep tabs on how things are going. Since I have an outsider's view of Tesla, and an insider's view of the industry, my opinions are quite often not popular, despite how true they might ring.

I have seen several Model 3's in person despite being lodged firmly in middle America, and while I think they look sharp on the outside, I can't get past that "F it, let's just glue an iPad to the dash" interior. I understand why it's done that way however.

Given your position in business, you'll be surprised that a Tesla is closer to you than you think. Check with your CPA on Model X and Section 179. A Model X becomes cheaper than a 3 for you if you can justify the business usage at least 51% of the time

I also think used LR Model 3s in the low 40's close to 40 is a far better deal than the $35,000 new SR Model 3's that people are waiting for.

Once you own/driven a Model 3 for a length of time, the interior works. I didn't think it would but it does. The lowered dash lets you see so much of the world in front of you compared to a traditional layout.

We have actually sold wiper blades to a Model S customer off the street. I can sell Model S rear brake pads also, they are the same as on a Hyundai Genesis. ;-)

It's not widely known but Mercedes and Toyota makes parts for Tesla as well. Mercedes and Toyotas even have Tesla manufactured powertrains. Rav4 EV and Mercedes B Class EVs were Tesla in the inside.

Breaking news. Model 3 is a great car to transport your family in.

Tesla Model 3 earns perfect 5-star NHTSA safety rating

 

[P85_DA]

@mattjs33 since u don’t own a Tesla let me know if you need my referral code ...lol where’s @fnce_prof ? ...we jacked his thread pretty good

 

[MXWing]

@mattjs33 since u don’t own a Tesla let me know if you need my referral code ...lol where’s @fnce_prof ? ...we jacked his thread pretty good

 

[MXWing]

Audi Says No To Stocking e-tron At Dealerships: Special Order Only

LOL-TRON

Audi declared it a joke right out of the gate.

 

[Chris Fox]

Audi Says No To Stocking e-tron At Dealerships: Special Order Only

LOL-TRON

Audi declared it a joke right out of the gate.

Just goes to show... Audi knows if they have their EV next to a gas car for the same price... no one will buy their gas cars.

It just shows that Tesla doesn’t have to do anything to fight off EVs from other manufacturers because the dealerships will ensure very few people buy EVs

 

[mattjs33]

Audi Says No To Stocking e-tron At Dealerships: Special Order Only

LOL-TRON

Audi declared it a joke right out of the gate.

To be fair, Tesla doesn't stock any of their electric cars at their dealerships either.

 

[mattjs33]

Just goes to show... Audi knows if they have their EV next to a gas car for the same price... no one will buy their gas cars.

So... is this an argument for or against Audi's EV?

Why wouldn't Audi hedge its bet? That's just good business. It's no secret Tesla is the leader in the EV space at the moment. Audi doesn't exactly want to flood the market with these things, only to discover that what a lot of people are really buying is the current, undeniable cachet of the Tesla brand, than they are the actual EV.

 

[artsci]

It's appalling that Tesla would even deliver a car in that state. And that agent -- he should be fired. I'd ask for a new car.

 

[fnce_prof]

Well they finally sent a flatbed to pick this sorry pos up. Buh-bye! Let's see how long it takes to get the money back now.

 

[MXWing]

To be fair, Tesla doesn't stock any of their electric cars at their dealerships either.

Please - at least you can test drive any of Tesla’s cars.

At Audi’s rate, I’m sure Tesla will get same day drive off before you can even test drive an etron.

 

[MXWing]

Well they finally sent a flatbed to pick this sorry pos up. Buh-bye! Let's see how long it takes to get the money back now.

Wow, surprised they still didn’t pick it up until now!! Were you allowed to drive it the whole time? I would have had a thousand miles on it by now hah.

Still going to wait till 2020-2021 for an etron?

 

[mattjs33]

Please - at least you can test drive any of Tesla’s cars.

At Audi’s rate, I’m sure Tesla will get same day drive off before you can even test drive an etron.

MX, didn't you see the winky? I thought we were good now. I'm just messing with you, even though I'm technically correct.